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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Detroit 471 diesel head gasket Help

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Hobo,NC

07-17-2005 08:09:32




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Got a good friend that has a 471 power unit to run his saw mill and think the head gasket izz leak'n. It never runs hot by the temp gauge but when under a load fer a few min. will start to push water out the over flow and build pressure (5 lbs or so) in the radiator along with lots of foam in the water, water flow izz very good and system holds pressure with no leaks. when running their izz a constant bubble of air so would lead me to think compression is leak'n by the head gasket. No water izz git�n in the oil and engine runs good, enny tips would be appreciated.
look'n at the engine it has housing on the front and rear of the engine that covers the ends of the head and I think they actually do dot seal to the head but do have a few bolts that bolt to the head. So my think'n izz to remove the front and rear bolts that go thru the housing at the head and the head would come off in a normal fashion. Correct me iffin I am think�n wrong �bout this. BTW shoot'n the exhaust manifold with a temp gun the front cyl. runs 145 deg. and back 3 run 195 deg. ext. temp. the engine temp runs around 120 to 130 and no real temp difference in the out let of the radiator and i am sure the rad is not stoped up and fan has good air flow althow the fan belt could be thighter. I even went as far as to block the air flow up in front of the radiator to restrict air flow so he would not have to work the saw mill to load up the engine but it made no differenc in engine temp. I had to load the engine to git it to push water out the over flow tube. Water level izz not to high in the rad tank. I believe at the time of the diagnosis the thermostat wuz removed.

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ZANE

07-18-2005 06:30:49




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 Re: Detroit 471 diesel head gasket Help in reply to Hobo,NC, 07-17-2005 08:09:32  
Hobo, I once had a caterpillar engine that had the same symptoms that started out minor and gradually over several months got bad. This tractor had a pressure gauge for the cooling system and it got to the point that it was pushing the needle off the scale.

I pulled the head and had a couple of small cracks fixed. Re installed it and no improvement. Took the injector adapters out and replaced the seals with no effect. I finally told the owner that the only other thing I could think might be wrong was the liner seals at the bottom of the liners so I took the engine back down and pulled the liners. When I started trying to pull those liners I knew they weren't going to be leaking because I had to make a puller adapter to fit the bottom of the liners and pull each sleeve with two hydrulic jacks. Tight ain't a good discription!

After I had all four of them out and we were standing around scratching our heads the owner who is not very mechanically inclined was holding one of the old liners up to the sun and inspecting it as if he knew what he was doing and he asked me if he shold be able to see a tiny hole in the liner sidewall???? I grabbed another one and pointed it at the sun and I also could see tiny bits of sparkley holes in the side walls of the liners. Turned out that all four of them had holes in them but so small they were not visible unless a really bright light was shown through them.

Caterpillar people told me when they sold me the new ones that this was a common problem with older engines with lots of hours on them that was caused by "electroisis" Seems the movement of the parts of the engine produce a very slight electrical energy that over time can etch away the meatal from one place and depoist it in another. New sleeves fixed. I had to see a phsychiatrist! (spelling)

Zane

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Hobo,NC

07-18-2005 17:00:25




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 Re: Detroit 471 diesel head gasket Help in reply to ZANE, 07-18-2005 06:30:49  
Thanxs fer the reply, You know how it izz I would like to pin point the leak before I cutt�er open fer surgery. Sure would help to know what hole izz cause�n the problem looks like we gonna go in sum what blind. He tells me the saw mill does not make enny money just breaks even and more of a hobby than enny think else he may put it on hold till the itch comes back. I would like to run from it but he�s a very good friend who would give ya the shirt off his back.

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John N Ky

07-17-2005 12:57:08




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 Re: Detroit 471 diesel head gasket Help in reply to Hobo,NC, 07-17-2005 08:09:32  
Ain"t quite that easy. Your fuel ines connect to the head, fuel/governor rods, and you need the proper tool to reset injectors, which is the timing on this engine. If I were to make a guess the problem is most likely a leaking injector tube, which means the head should go to a shop to check and replace if that is the case. The head gasket is just a metal ring atop each of the sleeves and several o-rings on the various water and oil passages. Get a manual and you CAN DO IT. Just becareful when you go back together and double check you injector and control rods settings. YOU AIN"T LIVED TILL YOU HAVE HAD A RUNAWAY Detroit to deal with, you got to be quick to get her shutdown if it were to go.

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KCM

07-17-2005 18:34:25




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 Re: Detroit 471 diesel head gasket Help in reply to John N Ky, 07-17-2005 12:57:08  
FYI, If he has an old engine, he may have a "low block" engine. These used a regular head gasket like most engines. The one with the o-rings you describe is referred to as a "high block". You can tell the difference by looking at where the head bolts to the block. If you can see a gasket betwen the metal block and head, it is a "low block". If it looks like the metal head sits right on the metal block with nothing in between, it is a "high block".

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KCM

07-17-2005 18:40:09




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 Re: Detroit 471 diesel head gasket Help in reply to KCM, 07-17-2005 18:34:25  
Forgot to say that I second it that it might be an injector tube. It is possible it could be a cracked head, but I doubt it. And a trick my dad uses when starting a 471 for the first time is to leave the valve cover off and use a pair of vice grips to grab the rack tube (which opens the injectors and is run by the governor). Unhook the governor rod first. This way you can easily shut down the fuel if something goes wrong. Just make sure you know which way is off.

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Hobo,NC

07-17-2005 14:45:17




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 Re: Detroit 471 diesel head gasket Help in reply to John N Ky, 07-17-2005 12:57:08  
Talked to Jim,NC and he told me he had werked on the 453 and how the 453 engine wuz sealed and thought the 471 may be the same. Friend knows �bout the injector set up cuz he replace�em last summer. So I take it that the injector tubes may not be seal�n and they are installed thru the water jacket in the head and this is were I am git�in induced air into the cool�n system ?? Jim did talk �bout possibility of a pin hole in a liner. System would hold pressure

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John N Ky

07-17-2005 16:09:25




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 Re: Detroit 471 diesel head gasket Help in reply to Hobo,NC, 07-17-2005 14:45:17  
Yes the liner could have a pin hole in it but I kinda doubt that being the problem. I have seen many injector tubes leak 53 & 71 series both, but the only time I ever saw liner leaks it was due to over heating and the o-ring seal on the liners were cooked.



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Hobo,NC

07-17-2005 16:23:44




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 Re: Detroit 471 diesel head gasket Help in reply to John N Ky, 07-17-2005 16:09:25  
Jim made 'bout the same statment, so It looks like enny way he goes he will need to have the head checked fer leaks and the injector tubes replaced. Jim did not think the bolts in the covers (timing covers I think) on the front and back of the heads went thru them and into the head. Probley not a bad job to do cept fer the mess. Thanks



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KCM

07-17-2005 18:30:24




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 Re: Detroit 471 diesel head gasket Help in reply to Hobo,NC, 07-17-2005 16:23:44  
You do not need to take the covers off the ends of the motor. You do need take the cast bracket with the lifting hook molded in off (held on by four bolts). The head slips between the covers.



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Hobo,NC

07-18-2005 04:36:38




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 Re: Detroit 471 diesel head gasket Help in reply to KCM, 07-17-2005 18:30:24  
Thanks thats what I needed to know. I feel its a head gasket are head seal cuzz it will hold pressure and not leak down. I would think iffn it wuz a injector tube I would git leak down with a radiator pressure test of 15psi. Only see this problem when engine izz under load. Also feel it leaks after hot at idle but so small a leak its hard to see unless you seal off the rad at cap and have sum slight bubbling then thru a combustion tester. It will not turn the fluid yellow like a gas engine will, do you know iffin diesel will turn the fluid yellow like gas engine will ?? Strange that the rad temp izz 120 deg at the thermostat and inlet ti rad and same themp at outlet of rad I seen no cool'n of the radiator, remember he has removed the thermostat after he tryed a few new'ins with no effect still pushes water out the ouverflow at a good rate. It may be circulat'n so fast it does not have time to cool the water down with out the thermo installed, 130 izz hot as I seen it git. I do know when you git air in the system it will cause air locks are pockets of air amd cause strange things to happen. It would be EZ to say run it cuzz it ain't git'n hot but he don't won't to find out the hard way when it has never pushed out the water befor. Thanks

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george md

07-19-2005 20:34:52




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 Re: Detroit 471 diesel head gasket Help in reply to Hobo,NC, 07-18-2005 04:36:38  
Sounds like you should check the water pump ,
many times it will suck air in at the seal before
it leaks water out . That leak will make bubbles
at higher rpm and some at idle and will not change
the color of the test fluid.

george



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Terexer

08-22-2005 11:55:32




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 Re: Detroit 471 diesel head gasket Help in reply to george md, 07-19-2005 20:34:52  
Sounds to me it�s something with the head, either a cracked head or leaking injector tube. Since you have to load the engine to make it blow water, you will probably not find any leak by setting pressure at radiator, the crack or leak is just too small. I recently overhauled a 471, with new pistons, liners bearings and a remanufactured head since mine was both cracked AND had leaking injector tubes. Had never messed with Detroits before, bought repair manuals from ytmag. Parts from dieselspecialists in Louisiana. Good luck. /Dennis

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Terexer

08-22-2005 11:54:59




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 Re: Detroit 471 diesel head gasket Help in reply to george md, 07-19-2005 20:34:52  
Sounds to me it�s something with the head, either a cracked head or leaking injector tube. Since you have to load the engine to make it blow water, you will probably not find any leak by setting pressure at radiator, the crack or leak is just too small. I recently overhauled a 471, with new pistons, liners bearings and a remanufactured head since mine was both cracked AND had leaking injector tubes. Had never messed with Detroits before, bought repair manuals from ytmag. Parts from dieselspecialists in Louisiana. Good luck. /Dennis

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JimNC

07-17-2005 12:55:13




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 Re: Detroit 471 diesel head gasket Help in reply to Hobo,NC, 07-17-2005 08:09:32  
Hobo My Buddy,

Give Me a call.

Jim



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