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Lets go over this head replacement one more time

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Snowplow

02-25-2003 05:01:15




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I have had problems. Coolant in the oil (and everywhere else). Cleaned head and block replaced head gasket, sealed bolts. Torque and go.

#2 cyl. full of coolant after cranking. Back to square one. Check head for cracks.

Took head to machine shop. Magnaflux showed no cracks and they shaved it 10/1000 and cleaned it all up. Is 10/1000 a lot or a little? It seems like a pretty close shave to me.

Anyway I'm ready to slap it back on. If it doesn't work the whole block goes in I guess.

What am I missing? I've got new head blots and a new soft tisco gasket, good thread sealer, and a nice torque wrench set for 65lbs. I have the manual for correct sequence.

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Dan (Myersville)

02-25-2003 07:24:30




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 Re: Lets go over this head replacement one more time in reply to Snowplow, 02-25-2003 05:01:15  
Did you tell the shop to mill the head or ask them to check it for warpage? I know it's hindsight but no need to mill it .010 if it wasn't warped. You can use a good machinist's rule and a feeler gauge to check the head for flatness. Once you do that you know if its twisted and how much needs to come off if it is. That .010 number is kind of a machinist's default value so they may have just indexed off of the old head and cut away without any checking. Would be informative to know what if any warpage the shop found. Should be flat now in any event. I assume you have thoroughly cleaned all foreign material from the top of the block and insured it is free of nicks and burrs. Given your past experiences I'd apply the rule/feeler gauge check to the top of the block before assembly as well!

Good luck,

Dan

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David - OR

02-25-2003 07:17:11




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 Re: Lets go over this head replacement one more time in reply to Snowplow, 02-25-2003 05:01:15  
Check your milled head for piston dome and valve to head clearance. Put the head on the engine without a gasket. Secure it with a couple of bolts threaded in a few turns to serve as locating pins. Turn the engine over by hand through two complete revolutions. The head must not lift off the block at any point.

65 lb-ft of torque with thread sealant is too much. The torque spec for 7/16 grade 8 bolts is meant for clean, dry threads. This needs to be adjusted downwards for the lubricating properties of the sealant you are using. For watery red permatex or equivalent, maybe 60 lb-ft. For teflon pipe thread sealant, use 52 lb-ft.

Be sure the bolt holes in the block are clean, the threads in good condition, and any blind holes are free of water/oil. Torque in the sequence given in the manual. Bring the torque up to the final value in three complete passes over all the bolts. Use something like 30, 45, 52 lb-ft.

If you have access to an automotive leak-down tester, aka aircraft engine "compression tester", this would be a good time to use it. Bring #2 up to top dead center on the compression stroke, pressurize the cylinder with shop air, and check your percentage leak-down. A bad leak down -- say below 50/80 -- indicates a lack of adequate sealing. Take note of where the air is going -- some leakage past the rings is OK, but obviously you should NOT be getting air hissing out the radiator cap.

You can approximate the above test with an air compressor and a rubber-nosed air gun. Bring #2 up to TDC, put the tractor in high gear with the wheels well blocked, and pressurize the cylinder through the spark plug hole with shop air. Air coming out the radiator cap is a bad thing, and you might as well find out this way and save the engine the indignity of another internal bath.

When it comes time to try starting the engine again, I suggest using plain water instead of anti-freeze. Anti-freeze is a lot harder on bearings than plain water, should the same problem recur. If you test it and everything looks good, don't forget to drain the block and radiator and put the correct amount of anti-freeze in.

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Joel (SoCal 44's)

02-25-2003 06:08:31




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 Re: Lets go over this head replacement one more time in reply to Snowplow, 02-25-2003 05:01:15  
I had 0.012 milled from a head. Do you have bolts or studs holding the head on?? The coolant can seep by the threads... But how it would get into the cylinder is beyond me!

Carefully look at the surface around that #2 on the block. I can't imagine how water would get in really. Do let us know when ya find out.

Joel



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Tom 8N396936

02-25-2003 05:04:02




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 Re: Lets go over this head replacement one more time in reply to Snowplow, 02-25-2003 05:01:15  
SP, did you go back in and retorque after heating it up? I know this step can create a problem if skipped (don't ask). tom



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Snowplow

02-25-2003 05:18:52




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 Re: Re: Lets go over this head replacement one more time in reply to Tom 8N396936, 02-25-2003 05:04:02  
Never got it started to heat up. To much coolant in #2.



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Consider this - or am I way off base ? TimK

02-25-2003 14:40:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Lets go over this head replacement one more time in reply to Snowplow, 02-25-2003 05:18:52  
If the block is not cracked, and the head is not cracked, I can't emagine all the water you are describing in the cylinder, unless..... ...I wonder if the water is coming from a bad stud on the intake manifold. Those studs do lead directly into the water jacket. The intake valve would then let the water in. Just a thought.



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Rich,NJ

02-25-2003 15:22:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Lets go over this head replacement one more time in reply to Consider this - or am I way off base ? TimK, 02-25-2003 14:40:23  
One more crazy idea.. (hell, the sane ones aren't working) take a magnifying glass and go around the seam where the top of the cylinder sleeve meets the bore in the block. I'm begining to wonder about a chip or gap at this point. Just My two cents. Regards , Rich



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raytasch

02-26-2003 11:05:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lets go over this head replacement one more time in reply to Rich,NJ, 02-25-2003 15:22:39  
Rich, You may be onto something here. Some of these old blocks have very thin walls where the sleeves fit the block; If one rusted through and the sleeve was not perfectly tight you could get water in the combustion chamber. I know of two late N blocks with this problem.
ray



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Snowplow

02-26-2003 05:28:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lets go over this head replacement one more time in reply to Rich,NJ, 02-25-2003 15:22:39  
The head was shaved at a good machine shop and the place that was high (the bad part) was right in the middle and between the #1 and #2 cylinders. So I am hopeful that is will seal up this time, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything. The concept of the bad manafold stud mentioned above is interesting, however would think I would get a more constant drip down into the carb because the static level of the coolant is above the manafold. That thankfully has not been one of my problems. I'll post results by this weekend when I slap it on and see....

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TimK

02-26-2003 08:20:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lets go over this head replacement one more time in reply to Snowplow, 02-26-2003 05:28:23  
I was thinking that the only time it would leak coolant from the manifold stud was when the tractor was running and the vacuum from the manifold would suck it into the cylinder. All other times you would not notice a leak statically. Maybe I'm thinking too much !



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Snowplow

02-26-2003 09:31:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lets go over this head replacement one more time in reply to TimK, 02-26-2003 08:20:17  
You could be right for all we know right now. If it was a very light leak, or even a crack, it might only be a problem when the tractor was running. However if you have ever loosened a head bolt you know that even after a couple of turns the coolant comes right out so I think it would come out of a bad manifold bolt pretty readily. I can't remember now but do the manifold bolts even connect with the inside of the manifold. Wouldn't it have to get by the manifold gasket somehow. But its a good thought and I appreciate it. The more options to consider the better.

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TimK

02-26-2003 11:39:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lets go over this head replacement one more time in reply to Snowplow, 02-26-2003 09:31:19  
Yep, the leak would either have to get my the gasket, which is possible, or there would have to be a fault in the block in that area.



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