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Snowplows

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Cannonball

01-07-2003 04:30:29




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I would like to build a push snowplow for my 8N. I tried the backbalde, but neck gets sore.

Does anyone have some plans, pictures, etc on how to make a good one? I am concerned mostly with the lifting options. Obviously would like the 3-point to do the lifting.

Thank you.




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Gordy MN

01-07-2003 20:19:14




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 Re: Snowplows in reply to Cannonball, 01-07-2003 04:30:29  
Dan In refernece to your old Sauder loader, I know what you mean by being front heavy. I have an 8n with a homemade front end loader and it is also front heavy. I have a six foot bucket, but most of the weight is in the frame. Steering is a real task at times, especially in tight quarters. My question is: how does your new design take the weight off the front end? You would still have to tie it into a frame, right? The hydraulics you speak of are nice, but woudln't you still have the weight problem in the front? Thanks for your reply. Gordy

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Dan (Myersville)

01-08-2003 12:57:02




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 Re: Re: Snowplows in reply to Gordy MN, 01-07-2003 20:19:14  

New design = remove steel. I gave up on the idea of ever using this loader for it's intended purpose and bought a Kubota with loader for those chores. I then proceeded to chop the heck out of the Sauder front end:

1) Removed loader cylinders, lift arms and bucket 2) Modified manure fork/snow bucket to fit Kubota lift arms and threw it out of balance! 3) Cut the loader supports off the frame as low as possible leaving only the lower cylinder mounts, cross members and stubs of the attchment points for the support just in case I need them.

What I have left weighs in around 200 pounds. My next step is to weld a cylinder mount to the front crossmember for a single vertically mounted dual acting cylinder. I'll use the original bottom brackets for attaching the blade. Until I find a suitable plow I can't work out the specifics of the geometry. Something along the lines of the Cat 96x crawler that has the lift cylinder mounted that way. I toyed with the idea of cannabilizing a rear scraper blade but the moldboard on them isn't really tall enough to make a good snowplow. Power angling is an intended feature as well but that will have to wait for the plow specs as well.

I figure I've dropped the weight of the original unit from about 1000 down to 200-250. Added weight for plow and hydraulics mavbe another 300 max. and hopefully a good bit less. I think a 40 to 50% reduction in weight will make a ton of difference ;-) Of course it's no longer a loader but with some careful engineering should be a pretty good plow/grader and I can quit looking over my shoulder. Kounts/dismounts easily as well. Still got that ground clearance problem but you have to dance with the girl that brought you...

With regard to loaders per se the only reasonable solution I can conceive of is to build a frame with the loader attachment point just forward of the dash area like a modern unit. I think Dearborn had such a unit. The loader design on my Kubota would work fine on an N-series with some thoughtful redesign. Might not be cheap to make though. The frame bolts to the differential housing in the rear and the front bumber in the front. You could certainly use the stabilizer bracket on an N instead of the diff and you'd need some thought on the way a bumber on an N moves around. The loader arms and cylinders attach to a U shaped arrangement built from box steel and channel that wraps around the tractor belly just forward of the dash and is braced front/back by some 1/4" straps to the bumber. The loader arms are box steel, heavy, and probably pretty pricey to build. This balances much better but doesn't come off easily or quickly. The Kubota doesn't have PS and even with 500# in the bucket can be steered with only a modest amount of grunting. I'd call it a light duty setup. Handles most of my needs. The MF-135 I'm looking for handles the rest - hope the wife isn't peeking!

Dan

P.S. I AM going to shoot som pics of the carcass and post them REAL SOON NOW. The undercarriage is a nice design if you don't mind the ground clearance issue.

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Dan (Myersville)

01-07-2003 09:16:50




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 Re: Snowplows in reply to Cannonball, 01-07-2003 04:30:29  
The axle brackets (2) are each made from two pieces of 1/4" angle about 4 inches long. The are welded together crosswise on the faces of the angle. The bottom angle is drilled to bolt to the axle. The upper angle sits on top of the axle and locates the frame left to right. The frame hangs on the axle outside of each bracket and cannot move left or right. The ball hitch at the differential provides an easy drive-in connection but could be accomplished using a yoke and pin setup as well - there is no need or desire for lateral or vertical movement. This is a simple setup but has one significant drawback - the undercarriage frame is under the trans so ground clearance is reduced by 6-8". As I said I'll take some pictures when I get a chance.

The original loader had a manure fork on the loader and a 6' snow bucket that mounted to the tines of the fork. Put this thing on a 9 loaded with wet snow and start down my 15-20% grade lane. You'd need a rear chute to stop it (or a big tree)!

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Dan (Myersville)

01-07-2003 09:57:47




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 Re: Re: Snowplows in reply to Dan (Myersville), 01-07-2003 09:16:50  
Ooops - just realized what Dave meant about moving with the axles - yep - the undercarriage needs to twist along its front to back centerline as the axles pivot on the center pin. The reciever on the diff. is just U-shaped channel cross drilled near the top front for a 3/8" pin. The ball slides into the U from the front and the pin is inserted behind the ball to keep it from pulling back out. The channel could even be square as long as it matched the diameter of the ball. In fact - its not even a ball but a bullet shaped cylinder with a groove for the retaining pin. Now were's my scanner ....

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Dave in (still snow free) IA

01-07-2003 12:41:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Snowplows in reply to Dan (Myersville), 01-07-2003 09:57:47  
Dan, thanks for the description of the back mount. Simpler than I imagined, and your right, could be made very simply. Thanks for the post! Looking forward to your photos.



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Dave in (snow-free) Iowa

01-07-2003 08:38:00




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 Re: Snowplows in reply to Cannonball, 01-07-2003 04:30:29  
Dan(Myersville) mentioned the Sauer design. I have also been thinking about fabbing up a front plow, and I like what I've seen of the Sauer frame design. Does any body have a good picture of the front axle mounting brackets? I assume the frame is fixed to the axels (moves with the front axle), hence the ball mount at the back. Thanks!



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Cannonball

01-10-2003 17:13:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Snowplows in reply to Al in PA, 01-07-2003 18:40:45  
Lots of ideas here, and I appreciate the large response. However, I can't believe that someone out there hasn't built one from scratch with a little steel and lots of ingenuity. My Dad built one for hie Oliver 60 about 40 years ago, and still works fine. My Grandfather built one for his Farmall (sorry) Cub. Worked fine 45 years ago.

Someone out there has-- I know it.



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Dan (Myersville)

01-07-2003 19:22:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Snowplows in reply to Al in PA, 01-07-2003 18:40:45  
Frame is very similar to what I have here. I'd love to get my hands on the plow but $700 sounds pretty steep to me. What site was that from?



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Rustynail aka Ken Frantz

01-07-2003 07:26:44




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 Re: Snowplows in reply to Cannonball, 01-07-2003 04:30:29  
Dan,

Ultradog NM built a front blade for his "N" using hydraulic to operate the blade in combination with the 3 point tractor hydraulics.

I think I pulled the pictures off of his web site of which I failed to note the "address"

Mabe he will chime in and let us know his web address.

He did a great job on the pic and work!!!!

Thankyou Ultradog for sharing and hope others will enjoy them also.

Rustynail

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Dan (Myersville)

01-07-2003 09:21:44




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 Re: Re: Snowplows in reply to Rustynail aka Ken Frantz, 01-07-2003 07:26:44  
Yes - I saw his design - very clever. But it does not provide down pressure on the blade because the 3pt has no down pressure. Gravity drops the blade.



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Ultradog MN

01-07-2003 16:26:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Snowplows in reply to Dan (Myersville), 01-07-2003 09:21:44  
Dan,
You are correct. There is no down pressure on my plow. However, those cheapie cylinders that I used are double action. Another hose and some weight on the lift arms would Give you down pressure. And more traction.
I would have made the 3/8 X 2 scissors on the front lift amplifier a little stouter though if I had that in mind.
But Meyer's and Western both use a chain to lift their plows so I didn't think I needed down pressure. My link (which anyone may post) is below.

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Dave in Iowa

01-08-2003 09:24:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Snowplows in reply to Ultradog MN, 01-07-2003 16:26:00  
Thanks for the pictures - nice design. Do you support the main beams leading to the rear axle at the front axle to control side thrust when the blade is angled? Or does your pivot mount take care of that?



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Dan (Myersville)

01-07-2003 19:39:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Snowplows in reply to Ultradog MN, 01-07-2003 16:26:00  
Not dissing your design - I think it's quite elegant and noticed the cylinders were double action. I have a significant snow issue here (long steep lane that doesn't get a lot of sun) and one of the problems is getting built up ice off. I have a bucket loader on my 4WD Kubota that works pretty good at chipping it away but the bucket's only 48" and the cutting edge is badly bent from digging in the rocky ground up here. Floating blades like the 6'er I use for plowing often leaves a thin layer of packed snow which turns to solid ice if the thaw/freeze cycle hits right. Hence my obsession with down pressure. Not to mention that you can't really grade packed soil with a floater. I had an uncle who restored a rather large older IH - can't remember the model but it was a beaut. He had put two double acting cylinders on the lift arms controlled by a double spool valve and that thing was a grading phenom. Total control over depth and tilt right from the seat.

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K...Now I Am Picking Up What You Are Laying Down...

01-07-2003 17:38:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Snowplows in reply to Ultradog MN, 01-07-2003 16:26:00  
Dang Nice!

I have an old tube loader that I will be attaching a snow-blade to by next year...Hopefully ;-)

Your setup is what I would term a 'Dozer' type blade as opposed to a 'Snow' blade...At least here in Vermont that is what I would call it...

What I think may be the answer to the lack of 'down pressure' is the angle of the blade itself...From what I see you have the blade cutting edge (actually the underside edge) parallel to the ground when in the fully down position...This leaves the top edge of the blade perpendicular to the ground and inline with the bottom edge...Most chain-lift 'snow' blades will be at a slightly greater angle so that the top edge is in front of the bottom edge...This allows the bottom 'cutting' edge to do its job, which is to physically 'pull' the plow downward into the snow, gravel, lawn edge, etc., and to roll the snow up and over in front of the snow that is yet to be touched by the blade...Your setup, although handy as heck, might benefit from re-angling the whole blade in relation to the ground...

I have both a Meyers (on an old CJ) and a 6 foot Fischer chain-lift snow blade here...They both only work well if the bottom edge is 'cutting'...Otherwise they tend to dig, ride up, and then over a pile of snow or dirt...With a 'snow-blade' at the correct angle, no down pressure is needed, and skid-shoes are highly recommended to keep the blade from digging too deeply into the drive, etc...

Also...Most snow blades are spring loaded to trip back and ride over immovable objects due to the usual inherent speed used for snow plowing...This is a safety measure that was incorporatd in many snow blade designs decades ago when they found that there was lots of wear and tear and breakage of expensive parts of vehicles...

I guess the gist of this diatribe is that, I am betting that, with a good snow blade at the correct angle when in the fully down position, instead of the blade you are using, you will not need down pressure on the front or ever miss it...

Sorry about the length...

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Dan (Myersville)

01-07-2003 06:00:56




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 Re: Snowplows in reply to Cannonball, 01-07-2003 04:30:29  
One of the drawbacks of traditional 3pt systems is the absence of positive down pressure. Rear and front mount blades benefit from arrangements that provide down pressure as well as lift. I had a Sauder loader that fit my 9N which used a frame similar to the Dearborn unit. It is "quick connect" in that it simply sets in brackets bolted to the front axle and has a v-shaped undercarriage with a ball on the tip which locks into a receiver bolted under the differential housing. You drive into and out of it (a tricky manuever given the 9's gearing ;-) It was way too front heavy with the loader frame on it so I took it off and plan to add a double acting cylinder and plow blade up front powered by a front pump.
Positive up/down control PLUS external hydraulics.
I can post a picture if you like as soon as the snow melts!

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Ed Gooding (VA)

01-07-2003 04:45:30




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 Re: Snowplows in reply to Cannonball, 01-07-2003 04:30:29  
Dearborn made what they called the "Universal Frame." Once attached to the tractor, you could then attach a dozer blade, a snow blade, or a V-blade snow plow to it. It used a cable system from the blade to the 3-point lift to allow the operator to lift the blade on the front. Here's what it looks like:
Third Party Image

If this is along the lines of what you want to do, I can provide more pics, parts list, etc. Just let me know if you are interested.

Hope this helps..... ..... Ed
'52 8N475798

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Jim Spencer S.E. Michigan

01-07-2003 07:44:44




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 Re: Re: Snowplows in reply to Ed Gooding (VA), 01-07-2003 04:45:30  
ED:
I would love to get the picture and parts list of this frame. I am guessing that #20 & 21 attach in place of the stabilizer brackets under the rear axle. What is the chain for and how is the cable actuated by the lift?
Could you either send me email or post more info?
I have been doing a lot of measuring and preliminary thought on a front blade.
I have a rear blade I will try to utilize on the front. I am 68 years old and like cannonball have problems with my neck. (Probably caused from all the years twisting to watch behind.
TIA.
Jim

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Ed Gooding (VA)

01-07-2003 10:12:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Snowplows in reply to Jim Spencer S.E. Michigan, 01-07-2003 07:44:44  
Hey Jim. See if this answers your questions about attaching and using. I've don't have all the parts info uploaded to my FTP server, but will do that in the morning and post them. I've gotten a couple of email queries about it, and I can answer them all in one shot by posting here tomorrow morning.

Third Party Image

Third Party Image

Third Party Image

Third Party Image

Third Party Image

Here's a driver's seat perspective on one:

Third Party Image

I'll post the other parts info tomorrow morning from home.

Hope this helps..... ..... .Ed
'52 8N475798

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Jim Spencer S.E. Michigan

01-07-2003 16:40:15




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Snowplows in reply to Ed Gooding (VA), 01-07-2003 10:12:09  
Ed I guess I have no really good way of saying how much I appreciate the help.
I have the photos and will be buying the steel for this frame very shortly. (As soon as I get it all sorted out with exactly what I need.) If I can get to this I will send you pictures and maybe someone can post them.
I am very busy right now as I have been taking my wife to the doctor almost every day recently.
Her kidneys are failing and we have to prepare her for Dialysis and ensure she doesn't eat something that will be a disaster. Good quality food is soo high in Potassium that it can kill her.
I will probably use square tubing for the main frame. Angle iron for some of the brackets.
I have a back blade that swivels which I will try to utilize for the blade.
Yes it would be nice if I could get some of the dimensions such as wall thickness and length of the angle legs etc.
I will probably build some things way too heavy and find out some components I have built too lite. That is always a problem when trying to reinvent the wheel.
Any help is deeply appreciated.
Jim

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Dan (Myersville)

01-08-2003 06:40:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Snowplows in reply to Jim Spencer S.E. Michigan, 01-07-2003 16:40:15  
My advice with regard to sizing the components for your frame is to keep it as light as possible given the usage you expect for it. The Sauder unit I have is extremely heavy (it was designed as a front loader frame) and is too much for a N-series tractor to handle. Almost all of the weight you are adding is going to sit on the front axle. Unless you've added PS to your N that's going to be very noticable! The front implement weight is going to sit in front of the axle and the further forward of the axle you place it the more your going to unbalance the tractor and the heavier the steering is going to get. And last but certainly not least - how are your brakes and what's your terrain like? Add 1/2 a ton to your machine, point it down a hill with little or no steering, and you are in for some excitement. I'm speaking from experience here. Neither engine compression nor brakes (what brakes?) will hold it. The added front load lightens the rear tires and they don't grip and your plowing on a slippery slope! Better drop that blade and hope it catches something substantial. And uphill can be a problem too. The blade's up because you can't plow uphill, the rear's light, and you can't get enough traction to haul the load up the hill. All of this with the rears full of CaCl and strapped with heavy-duty field chains.

Now that I've thoroughly discourged you (I haven't have I ;-) just keep my cautions in mind when you cobble up your unit. Judging from the pictures UnderDog's frame is a lot lighter than mine and that Dearborn design. I'd start there. My Pap had a sidemount sickle bar mower on his 8N (NH??) that was raised and lowered via a cable and pully arrangement connected to the lift arm. You might want to consider that as an alternative to UnderDogs's setup. I can try to provide more details if you are interested and Ed seems to have a VERY complete collection of old manuals for this stuff. He may have something similar in the mower section.

Personally I dislike the Dearborn design with the pivot point below the rear axle. I think ground clearance is a real issue and this design really eats it up. It also severely limits the amount of implement lift. You're never going to need to take it into unplowed areas right? Probably the most embarassing moments in my machinery operating history involve getting tractors and 4X4's stuck or tire-side up! A good neighbor never laughs when you ask him to bring his machine over to pull your's out of the muck.

I know this was long-winded so if your still with me I guess I was making a little bit of sense. Good luck and hope this helped. My motto and one I heartily recommend to all: KISS

Dan

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Ed Gooding (VA)

01-08-2003 05:05:43




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Snowplows in reply to Jim Spencer S.E. Michigan, 01-07-2003 16:40:15  
Good Morning, Jim. Here's the second page from the parts manual, listing the components. Unfortunately, it does not list the dimensions of the frame parts. Hopefully another forum member who has one will be kind enough to take the measurements (metal thickness, etc.) and post them here for you.
Third Party Image

Best of luck with it..... ..Ed
'52 8N475798

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