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2N 12v Conversion

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Jim - MN

11-04-2002 18:21:39




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I am doing a 12V conversion on a 2N and would like to know if I can use the original starter switch? The original connections for the battery and starter don't appear to be on a solenoid.
Do I need to install a 12v starter solenoid?
What was the function of the wire wound resistor on the terminal block on the back of the dash?




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Dell (WA)

11-04-2002 20:08:59




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 Re: 2N 12v Conversion in reply to Jim - MN, 11-04-2002 18:21:39  
Jim..... ....yes, you can and should use the original roundcan safety interlocked starter switch on your 2N, wheather 12 or 6 volts, it don't care. NO, you don't need a 12 volt solenoid.

BTW your starter doesn't care if positive or negative ground, but your 12 volt alternator absolutely demands NEGATIVE GROUND. Your headlights (if any) don't care positive or negative ground BUT 12 volts will burn 'em out, replace 'em with 12 volt bulbs.

"What was the function of the wire wound resistor on the terminal block on the back of the dash"..... .you're kidding, right?

That is the "infamous ballast resistor" required to use with the OEM 6 volt frontmount square ignition coil. Without it, the coil burns out.

Since there are essentually 2-ways to convert the 2N ignition system to 12 volts and since you didn't indicate which way this electrically challenged conversion is going to be done, I will just comment.

If you plan to use the OEM 6 volt ignition coil, then you MUST USE BOTH a 12 to 6 volt converting resistor AND the infamous ballast resistor. Wire them in series like flashlight batterys. Understand?

The other choice of converting the 2N is to use a now available 12 volt frontmount coil WITHOUT the infamous ballast resistor, understand? BUT you must use a current limiting resistor of about 1/2 ohms 20 watts. Get a 2-pack from Radio Shack of 1 ohm 20 watts resistors. Twist and solder the 2 resistor wire leads together. NOW use only this 1/2 ohm resistor INPLACE OF the ballast resistor. Use NO OTHER resistors, understand?

Don't use a 12 to 6 volt converting resistor, understand? Don't use the "infamous ballast resistor", understand? Don't use the OEM 6 volt frontmount coil, understand? Just use this 1/2 ohm 20 watt current limiting resistor ONLY with the 12 volt frontmount ignition coil, understand? ..... .....respectfully, Dell

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Jim - MN

11-05-2002 17:51:05




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 Re: Re: 2N 12v Conversion in reply to Dell (WA), 11-04-2002 20:08:59  
Thanks Dell, I UNDERSTAND completely. My wiring was original and in pretty bad shape, so I didn't attempt to trace anything. I plan to use the original 6v coil, so I will add the necessary resistors. ( I already had them.)
The inductive ampmeter still works on this tractor which I thought was quite amazing.
Regards,
Jim



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DickTN

11-05-2002 06:51:21




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 Re: Re: 2N 12v Conversion in reply to Dell (WA), 11-04-2002 20:08:59  
Dell, The 6V solenoid certainly WILL care when it sees 12V. Ohm's law still applies. We probably can get away with this if the engine starts well, since the overcurrent time will be limited. If the engine doesn't start and the solenoid is engaged for too long there may well be "smokies" from the solenoid. This applies to the starter as well. I am familiar with back EMF on a motor, but it's still an overcurrent condition, survivable only because of limited time usage and, therefore, limited overheat time. I think I remember reading that about 20 seconds of starter usage should be followed by 2 minutes of cooldown time to allow heat dissipation. DickTN

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uh . . . Dell (WA)

11-05-2002 07:52:44




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 Re: Re: Re: 2N 12v Conversion in reply to DickTN, 11-05-2002 06:51:21  
Dick..... ...FYI, the OEM 2N/9N does NOT have a starter solenoid, only 8N's have a 3-terminal starter solenoid (p/n 8N11450, relay). And 12 volts on 6 volt solenoid in limited duty, does NOT burn it out. But if'n yer paranoid..... go ahead and change it to 3-terminal 12 volt solenoid, if you can find one that fits.

Its the starter motor that overheats and melts its armature winding solder used in assembly and throws it out all over the gutts of the motor. And it don't matter 6 volts on 6 volt starter, 12 volts on 6 volt starter, 12 volts on 12 volt starter, they all will do it. Long time cranking, gonna burn out your starter. My opinion, if it ain't started in 20 seconds, ya better gittout and findout why..... ....respectfully, Dell

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Les, TN

11-05-2002 10:21:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 2N 12v Conversion in reply to uh . . . Dell (WA), 11-05-2002 07:52:44  
Been ther, done that � mor'n once. I always feel sorta foolish takin it back to the solderin shop. When they open it up and say, "Look e there, there's solder all over da place."



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Clint Smith

11-04-2002 21:21:49




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 Re: Re: 2N 12v Conversion in reply to Dell (WA), 11-04-2002 20:08:59  
Dell, you're a great guy and your advice was a lot of help to me when I was doing my conversion. But your repeated use of the word "understand?" is really condescending. And, I beg to differ with you. In my limited knowledge of electricity, it doesn't matter what COMBINATION of resistors you use, the coil only understands volts. As I was told, the "infamous" resistor drops a nominal 6v to about 4.5 max, anything more will burn out the coil and/or cause premature point failure. My ballast resistor drops a nominal 12v down to 3.8, and nothing bad has happened in over 2 years, even though I threw the "infamous resitor", a notorious weak link away. Understand?

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Dell (WA)

11-05-2002 00:30:50




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 Re: Re: Re: 2N 12v Conversion in reply to Clint Smith, 11-04-2002 21:21:49  
Clint..... ....Sometimes when dealing with the electrically challenged, you need to ask if they understand, understand?

And special for Clint, (since you didn't include an e-mail address), Ignition coil theory 101. Ignition coils work because of electro-magnetizm. The strength of the magnetic field is dependent upon many things, principally electron current as measured in amps NOT VOLTS. But Ohms Law conviently allows us to infer amps by measuring volts dropped across a resistance. Understand?

The "infamous ballast resistor" was Ford's attempt to compensate for effect of cold temperatures on the poor quality of wetcell batterys when trying to start a cold engine with 6 volts (they hadn't invented the diehard yet).

The ballast resistor automatically reduces its resistance with cold temperatures. Which inturns increases the amps thru the coil (Ohms Law, you know). Which increases the magnetic field. Which increases the strength of the sparkies when the points open and the magnetic field collasps.

Within about 90 seconds, the ballast resistor has heated up and increased its resistance and reduced the current to the coil primary before the coil has had a chance heat up and melt its internal insulative tars and short out the primary windings thereby causing weak sparkies.

Read very carefully, I specifically called my trick 12 volt coil resistors "current limiting" 1/2 ohm 20 watts and that is exactly what they do for the 12 volt frontmount coil. So the correct 12 volt coil check should be about 11 volts max.

The 12 volt frontmount coils used to be tagged 13.8 volts max, care to guess why? Guess what the 12 volt alternators put out? about 14.7 volts. Guess what 14.7 volts does to the 12 volt coil current? Care to guess what that extra current does to the coil?

Now for all you newbie brousers. The square OEM 6 volt frontmount ignition coil used with the "infamous ballast resistor" works best if you can measure about 3.5 volts at the coil terminal (2.5 min, 4.0 max) with the points closed (engine NOT running) and battery volts with the points open. Any other value is going to give you sparkie problems.

These voltages are also correct if you choose to use a 12 to 6 volt converting resistor in series with the ballast resistor in a 12 volt conversion scheme. ..... ..... .respectfully, Dell

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Durk (OH)

11-05-2002 08:16:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 2N 12v Conversion in reply to Dell (WA), 11-05-2002 00:30:50  
These voltages are also correct if you choose to use a 12 to 6 volt converting resistor in series with the ballast resistor in a 12 volt conversion scheme. ..... ..... .respectfully, Dell

Why are you contradicting yourself Dell? Earlier in you rpost you said to NOT use the infamous ballist resistor with the current limiting resistor, UNDERSTAND? Now you say in the posted comment that you might have to use BOTH resistors in a 12 volt conversion? I have done 3 12 volt conversions in the last 6 months and i used both resistors per instructions, and GUESS WHAT? ALL 3 still run after hours of operation. Wouldnt you be better off to say..... ....check your voltage at coil and then decide which resistors you need inline to drop it to current limit? That way the 12 to 6 volt resistor supplied in the kits must work with the ballist resistor because i have 3 tractors to prove it, going on 4 by this weekend. I just cringe when i see you tell people to not use the infamous ballist resistor in their 12 volt conversion, because i know it works in the conversions i have done. UNDERSTAND? Respectfully...Durk

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Dell (WA)

11-05-2002 09:12:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 2N 12v Conversion in reply to Durk (OH), 11-05-2002 08:16:37  
Dirk..... .....please carefully re-read my earlier posts.

I said: DO NOT USE the infamous ballast resistor with the 12 volt frontmount coil. Understand? There is no contradiction there.

I have always said: YOU MUST USE BOTH the infamous ballast resistor AND a 12 to 6 volt converting resistor with the OEM 6 volt frontmount coil in a 12 volt conversion. Understand? There is no contradiction there.

And it doesn't matter 6 or 12 volts, the OEM 6 volt frontmount coil should have about 3-3.5 volts at the coil terminal (2.5 mi, 4.0 max) or you are going to have sparkie problems with the OEM 6 volt frontmount coil. Understand?

I carefully choose my words to help the electrically challenged. Even though you have successfully converted 3 tractors to 12 volts, your comments suggest to me that you are still electrically challenged..... ..... respectfully, Dell

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DavidO...You're both right

11-05-2002 10:34:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 2N 12v Conversion in reply to Dell (WA), 11-05-2002 09:12:23  
Dell has covered in meticulus detail how to do the 12V conversion using either a 6V coil or a 12V coil many times. We can't all know the same things as we pursue different avenues of endevor. You followed the instructions with the kits and successfully did the conversions. GOOD JOB!! That was smart and you are to be commended. Dell is still right about when to use the resistors and what type resistors to use.

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DavidO...Way to go Dell

11-05-2002 04:45:49




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 2N 12v Conversion in reply to Dell (WA), 11-05-2002 00:30:50  
Great explanation. I have trouble understanding why even the "electrically challanged" can't seem to grasp the idea that is is all about current, NOT, voltage when it comes to protecting the coil. Voltage is simply a convient way of predicting how much current will flow through the coil. You could use a 48V battery as long as you use the proper "current limiting" resistor. It is ok to call it a "voltage droping" resistor if you want to, but it's function is to limit the current through the coil. I understand!! Also, I am sure that you know, but some might not, that the two 1 ohm 20 watt resistors in parallel makes a 1/2 ohm 40 watt resistor. This type of resistor maintains a relatively contant resistance whether cold or hot, whereas, as you explained, the "infamous ballast resistor" changes value after it heats up. Instead of using a ballast resistor, automotive electrical systems us a solonoid with the "extra" terminal, so that the circuit resistance can be bypassed to provide full voltage to the coil for starting and, when the key returns to the "run" position, the resistance is switched back into the circuit to protect the coil.

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Les, TN

11-05-2002 07:14:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 2N 12v Conversion in reply to DavidO...Way to go Dell, 11-05-2002 04:45:49  
So (yep, I too am electrically challenged but trying to get a grip. Understand? ;-)), with better batteries, and if I leave my 6v system as is (6v), can I safely eliminate the infamous ballast resistor from the circuit?�or will that threaten the health of my front-mount 6v coil?

Hey, I really appreciate you guys with the brains hangin' in there with us po' challenged folks. As I read back through the posts it's amazing how often these questions get asked and you just keep comin' back for more. I'm told patience is a virtue.

BTW�gettin the parts together, maybe assembled today, fire in the hole tomorrow -- whoopee!! Then it's air in the tires, check the hydraulics . . . Ain't we havin fun?

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DickTN

11-05-2002 07:22:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 2N 12v Conversion in reply to Les, TN, 11-05-2002 07:14:17  
Negatory, bood guddy. The 6 volt coil only wants to see 3.5 volts or thereabouts. LEAVE THE BALLAST RESISTOR in!!!! Where you at in TN? DickTN



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Les, TN

11-05-2002 07:33:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 2N 12v Conversion in reply to DickTN, 11-05-2002 07:22:48  
Middle TN - Center Hill Lake is just over the ridge from us.

Nashville about 65 mi west of us, Cookeville about 30 mi east. Out in the sticks and love it.



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