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8N battery cables

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fred

09-26-2002 08:30:02




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I just picked up both my battery cables for my 8N, 12 volt system and noticed they were 4 gage instead of 2 gage. Is the 4 gage cables large enough to handle the starting system? Thanks, fred.




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DavidO...Well...Sorta

09-27-2002 05:56:35




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 Re: 8N battery cables in reply to fred, 09-26-2002 08:30:02  
It would take a very long post to straighten all of this out. I like Dell's reasoning best, but it does not look like he is taking into account the increased resistance of the smaller cable. The point is correct: Double the voltage with the same resistance equals double the current; however, the circuit resistance is NOT the same. So, while the current will increase, it is not exactly doubled. The real points that matter in THIS CASE are that you can use smaller cable with 12V because you have enough voltage to offset or overcome the increased resistance (higher voltage drop) of the smaller cable and still get sufficient voltage to the starter to turn it well. You actually have more current, as evidenced by the starter turning faster. The 4 guage cable is able to handle the high current for short durations, but you will have problems if you keep grinding away without the engine starting. The main reason for using the larger cable for the 6V battery is not so much for handling the current as to present a small resistance allowing sufficient current to flow without a large voltage drop across the cable. With the 6V battery, any significant voltage drop across the cable does not leave enough voltage left to cause the starter to turn effectively. Actually, I still use the large cables on my 48 8N even with the 12V battery and ,if I may quote one of our favorite contributors, "I know how to do it right."

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bg

09-26-2002 08:37:53




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 Re: 8N battery cables in reply to fred, 09-26-2002 08:30:02  
It has something to do with Ohm's Law...resistance and such, but with a 12-volt system, you can use smaller cables than with the 6-volt system.



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Dave OH

09-26-2002 11:16:19




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 Re: Re: 8N battery cables in reply to bg, 09-26-2002 08:37:53  
Double the Voltage and it will draw 1/2 the Amperage.
Dave OH



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wrong . . . Dell (WA)

09-26-2002 19:42:59




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 Re: Re: Re: 8N battery cables in reply to Dave OH, 09-26-2002 11:16:19  
Sorry Dave..... .....Ohms Law states very clearly, the current (I) in a circuit is directly porportional to the applied voltage (E) and inversly porportional to the resistance (R)..... I=E/R, Ohms Law.

That means if the resistance stays the same, and you increase the volts, AMPS gotta increase. Or double the resistance, and keep the volts constant, AMPS gotta decrease. Or double the volts and double the resistance AMPS stay the same.....Ohms Law still rules..... ...Dell

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Dave OH

09-26-2002 22:58:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N battery cables in reply to wrong . . . Dell (WA), 09-26-2002 19:42:59  
Yes but we are talking about the Power to turn over the starter motor. P=Watts or power. I=Amps E=Voltage I=P/E (Ohms Law) in this case is how many Watts or power is required to turn over the starter. At 12 volts it takes 1/2 the Watts or power of 6v.
That is why you may use smaller diameter cable with a 12v system. That is the same reason why a 220v circuit will draw 1/2 the amps of a 110v circuit for operating something in your house that may use either voltage. Such as a motor in your shop.
Or I may operate the 600 Watt Output amplifier on my amateur radio at 1/2 the amps by using 220v instead of 110 volts. I am using the same amount of power but I would have to use very heavy wire at 110v.
Dave OH

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still wrong . . . Dell (WA)

09-27-2002 01:27:43




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N battery cables in reply to Dave OH, 09-26-2002 22:58:35  
Sorry Dave, you're still wrong. 12 volts on a 6 volt starter gonna still draw more AMPS because the starter resistance is still the same. OHMS Law still rules.

Remember Power is as simple as pie, which does not have a resistance factor. P=IE

Which is one of the attractions for doing a 12 volt conversion, 12 volts on a 6 volt starter, really spins it. That really means yes, your starter is drawing more power (amps) from a 12 volt battery, which is translated into more turning torque (power) which translates into more turning rpms, because engine internal friction (resistance) has not changed.

We can get away with this because the starter mass acts as a heat sink in intermittant starter duty. And it usually only takes a couple of seconds of cranking to start an N on 12 volts. Just don't crank till the cows come home 'cuz you'll burn your starter out.

As for your 600 watt amp running on 220, your right, 1/2 the amps on 220 as the amps on 110. If you'll check your power supply schematic, your find you have to change your power transformer primary winding (resistance) with some form of jumpering depending upon your landline voltage used..... ..... .respectfully, Dell ex K0OAZ, ex W3EPS, ex KJ6DA and 40 yrs Electronics Engr

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Clayton

09-27-2002 18:32:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N battery cables in reply to still wrong . . . Dell (WA), 09-27-2002 01:27:43  
Dell, Is W3EPS an amateur radio call sign? Is W3 Washington DC? My father in law lived in DC among other places -- as he was in the Coast Guard -- and his sign was W3JPT. He's now 80 and living near Seattle. Still loves the radio.



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yes . . . Dell (WA)

09-28-2002 07:52:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N battery cables in reply to Clayton, 09-27-2002 18:32:57  
Clayton..... ....yep, W3EPS was my callsign in Maryland and would also be the same for Wash DC but Virginia is W4.

Radio Callsigns, the original zipcode (grin). W1 for New England states, W2 for New York, W3 for Pennsylvania, W4 for southern states W5 for Texas, W6 for California, W7 for Northwest, W8 for Michigan, W9 for Minnesota, W0 for Colorado, KH6 for Hawaii, KL7 for Alaska, KM6 for Midway, KW for Wake, KJ6 for Johnston, KX6 for polynesia. All agreed to by ITU (International Telecommunications Union) in Switzerland.

Within the past 10 years, there been a lot of radio callsign changes due to shortages and national pride.

Amoung the other more notable radio call signs prefixes were: A for US Army, N for US Navy, W, K for US commerical, XE for Mexico, C for Canada, GB for Great Britain, F for France, DE for Germany (Deutscheland), I for Italy. ES for Spain (Espana)..... ....Dell

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soundguy

09-28-2002 22:02:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N battery cables in reply to yes . . . Dell (WA), 09-28-2002 07:52:25  
Small world,

de KE4RRD

And I figured you had to be an Engineer too.

I was originally going to college for electrical engineering, but changed my major after a couple years and went civil eng. instead.

Soundguy



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Clayton

09-28-2002 20:13:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N battery cables in reply to yes . . . Dell (WA), 09-28-2002 07:52:25  
Interesting. Thanks for the info. I think my father-in-law still uses W3JPT out in Seattle. He is a very interesting guy. Got kamikazeed on a ship at Iwo Jima, spent a career in the Coast Guard working on maritime communications (eventually satellites) and then spent 15 years or so with Comsat. But he likes his amateur radio hobby more than anything. Kinda like some folks like N's...



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Dave Smith, You're both wrong and both right

09-27-2002 04:57:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N battery cables in reply to still wrong . . . Dell (WA), 09-27-2002 01:27:43  
A motor has a lot more going on in it than you are taking into account. Mainly the counter electricalmotive force generated in a turning motor. Far too complicated to be explaned here. 2 ga cables will work fine on 12 volt.
Dave Smith <*)))>< Retired Electrical Tech and motor inspecter and former WA2BBT Many many moons ago.



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Dave OH

09-27-2002 14:39:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N battery cables in reply to Dave Smith, You're both wrong and both right, 09-27-2002 04:57:59  
I agree with Dave Smith it is quite a bit more complicated than is required for this Board. Fred, I think you meant "Thanks....I Think?" Simply you can use smaller cables on 12v system than on 6v system. End of discusion. By the way guys why are you all ex-amateur radio operators? I know that since I got into these 8N tractors I have less time on the air though I still run a net on Thursday, when I remember, sometimes I have a senior moment or two but have a back-up Net Controler, thank goodness.
Dave OH

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fred

09-27-2002 08:20:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N battery cables in reply to Dave Smith, You're both wrong and both right, 09-27-2002 04:57:59  
Thinks guys-----I thank.



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fred

09-27-2002 08:16:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N battery cables in reply to Dave Smith, You're both wrong and both right, 09-27-2002 04:57:59  
Thinks guys-----I thank.



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fred

09-26-2002 08:55:10




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 Re: Re: 8N battery cables in reply to bg, 09-26-2002 08:37:53  
Thanks bg. I guess I'll put them on and if they don't get hot..... ..... Thanks again, fred.



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Soundguy

09-26-2002 09:47:10




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 Re: Re: Re: 8N battery cables in reply to fred, 09-26-2002 08:55:10  
The 6v system is the one that needs the 'thumb' sized cables... pinky sized cables should be fine for 12v applications.

Soundguy



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