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Installing coil

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JerryZ

10-19-2000 08:07:50




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Just took the coil off my '52 8N but forgot to look to see which terminal (- or +) was connected to the distributer, Can the Board give advice to someone to poor to pay attention.




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Charlie in TX

10-19-2000 08:55:14




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 Re: Installing coil in reply to JerryZ, 10-19-2000 08:07:50  
The - to ground if negative ground.
The + to ground if positive ground.



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New Guy

10-19-2000 12:02:11




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 Re: Re: Installing coil in reply to Charlie in TX, 10-19-2000 08:55:14  
Ground?? I have a 12 volt system and my - is attched to the distributer connection. Is this a ground or should it be grounded to the block?? And stop laughing please.

NG



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New Guy

10-19-2000 12:01:13




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 Re: Re: Installing coil in reply to Charlie in TX, 10-19-2000 08:55:14  
Ground?? I have a 12 volt system and my - is attched to the distributer connection. Is this a ground or should it be grounded to the block?? And stop laughing please.

NG



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Claus

10-19-2000 12:14:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Installing coil in reply to New Guy, 10-19-2000 12:01:13  
You are properly hooked up, since AC Generators usually require a - grounding system. Your - of the coil goes to the points.
Happy Motoring
Claus



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Nolan

10-20-2000 07:37:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Installing coil in reply to Claus, 10-19-2000 12:14:41  
Why? The dynamo portion is just a pump, it couldn't care less. The rectifier's just some check valves, and they don't care either. The regulator, if it even exists, may need to be isolated since it's often chassis grounded, but as long as it's isolated, it to couldn't care if ground is positive or negative.

So what am I missing here? I know the typical layout of automotive alternator assemblies (stator through regulator) is with it all grounded to the case as negative. Those should just require electric isolation, and then be able to go positive or negative ground through external wire connections easily enough. At least that's what it looks like to me.

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Claus

10-20-2000 08:54:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Installing coil in reply to Nolan, 10-20-2000 07:37:08  
Nolan: Notice I said usually in my post. It is just as easy to design a negative output AC Generator as it is for Positive..There is a local shop here that will build to suit..
Happy Motoring
Claus



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Nolan

10-20-2000 10:52:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Installing coil in reply to Claus, 10-20-2000 08:54:09  
Ok. I was just really starting to wonder if there was some obscure electrical engineering aspect of alternator design that I was missing which inherently forced a negative ground design. Wouldn't have been the first time I missed something! :-)



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Claus

10-20-2000 11:10:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Installing coil in reply to Nolan, 10-20-2000 10:52:29  
Naw... Just by the time the Altinators came into being, 1962 for Chrysler and 1963 for GM...(If the old bean serves me) The industry made the paradigm shift away from + grouding systems several years before that...
Happy Motoring
Claus



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Dell (WA)

10-20-2000 08:08:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Installing coil in reply to Nolan, 10-20-2000 07:37:08  
Nolan..... when a diode rectifies an AC voltage, only 1/2 of the alternating wave gets to go thru. Ever wonder what happens to the other half? It gets "disappated" in the form of HEAT. If the semi-conductor diode gets "too hot", it melts.

Alternator designers have cleaverly used the alternator case as a heat sink. The diode designers have also cleaverly designed the diodes to use the diode case as 1 side of the diode connection (instead of a wire). This is why modern 12 volt alternators are (a) inexpensive (b) reliable (c) efficent (d) negative ground..... ...Dell

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well....Charlie in TX

10-20-2000 12:14:31




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Installing coil in reply to Dell (WA), 10-20-2000 08:08:59  
Kinda, a diode is the equivelent of a check valve in a water system. The diode/check valve lets current/water flow in one direction and blocks it in the other. The heat comes from the diode being forward biased (conducting). A diode has 0.7 volt drop across it while conducting. Alternators we use on Ns are rated at 50amps. Therefor the power disipated in the forward direction would be 35 watts(0.7x50). But as you pointed out a diode conducts only half the time, therefor the diode would have 17.5 watts. A soldering iron may have as little as 15 watts. Thus the need for heat sink.

These alternators are connected in a full-wave rectification. In this arrangment, during the positive half of the ac wave, electrons are removed from the positive terminal thru a diode and during the negative half, electrons are added to the negative terminal by a second diode connect in the opposite direction of the first. Alternators are negative ground because way back when someone at GM picked negative ground and it stuck. It could have just as easily been positive groung.

I hope I haven't caused more confusion. It is more complecated than I have discibed but thats it in a nut shell.

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Dell (WA)

10-20-2000 19:04:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Installing coil in reply to well....Charlie in TX, 10-20-2000 12:14:31  
Charlie..... .I believe you'll find that the popular SI-10 alternator has a 3-phase stator and yes a full wave diode bridge for each stage which reduces the ripple of the diode rectifacation of a sine wave.

My explanation was an attempt in few words to explain why alternators require "negative ground". It really had to do with the eaze of frabication of diodes with their anodes as part of the metalic case for heatsink purposes. And subsiquently using the alternator case as a larger heatsink. It has nothing to do with reversing the alternator wiring to get a positive ground.

On my BMW's, for example, the alternators are "rubber mounted" for vibration reduction (less vibration is a perception of higher "quality" and thus the justification for higher prices) and thus need a seperate "grounding" wire from the alternator case to the engine block. The alternator case is negative.

The second reason for negative grounds, is the NPN transistor power amplifers used in radios. The same problem, heat. Using the radio chassis as heatsink required negative ground since the radio chassis was metal and hung from metalic dashboards with metalic shafts. Otherwize you blow your germainium fuses...er...power transistors.

Thankfully, the semi-conductor industry has come a loooonnnngggg ways since then otherwize, there wouldn't be computers or this N-Board (grin)..... ..Dell

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Nolan

10-20-2000 07:34:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Installing coil in reply to Claus, 10-19-2000 12:14:41  
Why? The dynamo portion is just a pump, it couldn't care less. The rectifier's just some check valves, and they don't care either. The regulator, if it even exists, may need to be isolated since it's often chassis grounded, but as long as it's isolated, it to couldn't care if ground is positive or negative.

So what am I missing here? I know the typical layout of automotive alternator assemblies (stator through regulator) is with it all grounded to the case as negative. Those should just require electric isolation, and then be able to go positive or negative ground through external wire connections easily enough. At least that's what it looks like to me.

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