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12 v Alternator with F R
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Chris n'Texas

12-08-2002 20:09:18




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I searched archives but could not find my answer. My tractor came with a 12 v alternator (GM early 70's type with F & R). It has the two wire voltage regulator also.

The tractor would not charge, the wiring looks pretty bad. Replaced all wires.

I ran the switched terminal to the voltage reg and the field tab on the v reg to the F on the alternator. Do I also run a wire from the switched terminal to the R? Is this the energy needed to Excite the alternator?

Any tips/suggestions greatly appreciated.
Chris n'Texas

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Louis

12-10-2002 07:31:22




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 Re: 12 v Alternator with F R - question in reply to Chris n'Texas, 12-08-2002 20:09:18  
It sounds like you have a NAPA voltage regulator part number vr 38sb providing the field current to the F terminal of your alternator. The R termonal is only there to operate the alternator light if so equipped, But in your case it would be left alone and only use the F terminal and the large battery terminal. If you are not charging you should check for voltage at the F terminal of the alternator while the ignition switch is on. There should be voltage there for the alternator to work. If there is none then check the IGN terminal of the regulator, there should be voltage there when the ignition switch is on. If there is voltage on the IGN terminal and none at the F terminal the regulator is bad. If there is voltage at the F terminal of the alternator and it still doesn't charge the alternator is bad.

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Jim Cox

12-08-2002 20:54:52




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 Re: 12 v Alternator with F R - question in reply to Chris n'Texas, 12-08-2002 20:09:18  
As usual Dell is on the money regarding the 10SI wiring. I have one concern though. Are you sure it's a 10SI? could it be a 10DN, in an SI package. Back in my core days we called them 'dummy delcos' cause they could trick folks. If the plug looks like this - - it a 10Si, and if it looks like || it's a 10DN which requires an external regulator. By the way, the 'R' terminal means RELAY. it's a pre-rectifier AC (alternating current) output, usually used to pull in a relay that disables the starter solenoid while the engine is running. Keeps the pinion out of the ring gear while it's already turning. Saves folks alot of money when you make a simple mistake. Hope that helps.
Jim Cox

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Yes, it's II, but....Chris n'Texas

12-08-2002 21:06:09




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 Re: Re: 12 v Alternator with F R - question in reply to Jim Cox, 12-08-2002 20:54:52  
It is the one with the II pins. So do I leave the R pin vacant/unplugged?
Thanks
Chris



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Jim Cox

12-08-2002 21:15:52




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 v Alternator with F R - question in reply to Yes, it's II, but....Chris n'Texas, 12-08-2002 21:06:09  
if you have the || connector, you'll need a voltage regulator. period. Just in case, post a pic of the alternator if you can. If it is one of those cheater delcos, we'll all have a reference. A simple test for you. Ground the F terminal while your old girl is running, and see if it charges. We call this 'full fielding' in the reman industry. If you have headlights, it will be a very quick visual indicator, but you could blow them in the process, so I'd leave them OFF. you won't want to do it long, could cause overload of the alt, or too much current thru a connection somewhere. As always, be careful around those moving belts!
Goodnight
Jim Cox SW Missouri
Starter/Generator/Alternator Rebuilder

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Bob

12-09-2002 10:04:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 v Alternator with F R - question in reply to Jim Cox, 12-08-2002 21:15:52  
On that alternator, the newer series case with the older guts (no internal regulator) you would connect full battery voltage to the "F" terminal, NOT ground it, to full-field the alternator!!!



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DelL (WA)

12-08-2002 20:36:16




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 Re: 12 v Alternator with F R - question in reply to Chris n'Texas, 12-08-2002 20:09:18  
Chris..... ....One of the reasons that the early 70's GM Delco 10-SI 12 volt alternator is popularily used for 12 volt conversions, they're cheap, widely available, and they have a built-in voltage regulator.

So when you say you used an external 2-terminal voltage regulator, that confuses me.

When you say you used alternator terminals F & R, they don't ring a bell with me eather.

Most Delco SI-10 alternators have 3-terminals. A BIG STUD to go to the battery to charge it. And 2-blade terminals, called P-1 (excite) and P-2 (remotes sense). Could make the arguement that P-2 is what you are calling "R" for remote. Can't figger what "F" on an alternator could stand for.

If it is just a simple case of mis-naming, I'd guess that if "R" is remote sense, the you should take a short jumper wire and connect it to the BIG BATT stud. This tells the built-in voltage regulator how much volts to put out to charge the battery. In a car where the battery can be mounted quite some distance from the alternator, the line loss could be significant. In a tractor conversion, line loss is negligible.

That makes a guess at what "F" means. Normally, P-1 (excite) is connected thru an idiot light wired to the same ignition "ON" terminal that the ignition coil is connected. Without the idiot light, the alternator will feed back battery voltage to the ignition coil even after you turn the ignition key OFF the engine will continue to run. So you need some sort of alternator excite isolation scheme. GM likes to use the idiot light scheme..... ..... .HTH, Dell

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maybe I'm wrong, but.....Chris n'Texas

12-08-2002 21:02:13




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 Re: Re: 12 v Alternator with F R - question in reply to DelL (WA), 12-08-2002 20:36:16  
Maybe I am wrong, but it is not the P1 and P2 alternator that I have seen on other tractors, pictures in the archives and saw at AutoZone.

This alternator has the F and R tabs lower on the alternator than the P1 and P2 tabs. I found a post by Claus where he said the F is Field and the R is for Relay. I assume that the F goes to the Field tab on the voltage reg, but I am not sure about the R? Per archives, Claus also said this type of alternator does not have a internal Voltage Regulator where the P1 and P2 does.


Yes, I could buy a new alternator with the P1 and P2 tabs, but I was hoping to save the money (to spend on my wife's Christmas present of course) and use what I got on the tractor.
Thanks
Chris

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just learned something . . . Dell (WA)

12-08-2002 23:37:08




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 v Alternator with F R - question in reply to maybe I'm wrong, but.....Chris n'Texas, 12-08-2002 21:02:13  
Chris..... ...sounds like Jim Cox correctly identified your alternator as 10-DN with F and R terminals || parallel and requiring an external voltage regulator. Instead of being the more popular Delco 10-SI with built in voltage regulator. As bj/8n/mt sez: "theres more than 1-way to convert to 12 volts and some of 'em even work".

To be honest with you, I didn't even know that there was a 10-DN alternator. And since you didn't provide any other id other than mid 70's Chevy PU, I guessed Delco 10-SI which began about that same time period. I flunked mind reading, just ask my ex-wife. Sorry, didn't mean to lead you estray..... ..... .Dell

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Gabie

08-01-2006 10:35:10




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 v Alternator with F R - questi in reply to just learned something . . . Dell (WA), 12-08-2002 23:37:08  
So as for the 1-r and 2-f on back of a alternator You are saying that it does not have a internal regulator ?



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