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Minneapolis Moline Tractors Discussion Forum

LP gas theory

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Mopower

01-08-2004 10:12:04

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I recently read a post about a guy debating LP or gasoline on a tractor and a fella wrote back that LP is not always understood. I know it is higher octane and very clean and powerful, but I would like to know the nuts and bolts of how it operates and the potential it holds. Some good pullin tractors have been built because guys understood what could be done. Just curious here fellas.

Ethan Berry

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jeff

01-12-2004 10:25:01

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Re: LP gas theory in reply to Mopower, 01-08-2004 10:12:04

I need some information. I have a Minneapolis-Moline Jet Star 3, which is propane. And i love it. But i haven't figured out how to fuel it without inverting 100 lb. propane bottles and raising them higher than the tractors tank to let them gravity drain. I would like to get a larger, 500 gallon tank but haven't seen any with a bottom outlet.
How do you guys solve this problem? Thanks,Jeff

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Tom in Mo.

01-12-2004 15:56:01

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Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to jeff, 01-12-2004 10:25:01

250 gallon and larger residential style tanks have a 'wet leg' pipe fitting right off the fill fitting. This has a tube attached inside the tank to draw liquid from NEAR the bottom of the tank. It is designed NOT to draw from the very bottom as sediment and moisture is on the bottom. I filled off an old 100 lb. bottle one time and clogged the tank valve with rust.

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Jeff

01-12-2004 17:11:19

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Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Tom in Mo., 01-12-2004 15:56:01

Thanks Tom, i wasn't aware of that. Jeff

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Chuck

01-10-2004 13:32:26

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Re: LP gas theory in reply to Mopower, 01-08-2004 10:12:04

Andy's reply is correct. Oct. can very on fuel some but if it gets above 105 on a stock engine at 9;1 to 10'1 comp. ratio you will lose alot of power can't burn high oct. in low comp. engine. It is very important to get comp. and oct. of fuel in sinc.

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Tom in Mo.

01-08-2004 18:30:29

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Re: LP gas theory in reply to Mopower, 01-08-2004 10:12:04

Good question! It's my understanding that propane has an octane rating of nearly 135. The pullers like to take propane heads and put them on gasoline tractors and burn high octane gasoline for more power. This is a real easy way to boost compression without having to change cranks, rods, etc. Propane leaves virtually no carbon residue when burnt. The only time carbon starts to build is when worn guides or the rings start to let engine oil into the top end of the cylinders. When gasoline is ignited in the combustion chamber, it burns quickly to create the pressure to move the piston but doesn't burn 100% efficiently. Propane doesn't burn, it explodes and is completly consumed in the flame; therefore little to no residue to form carbon deposits. The machinist I use for my engine work tells me that propane engines that have idled at very low speeds for extended lengths of time have actually had holes blown in the tops of the pistons from the sharp LPG explosion on top of the slow (relatively stationary) piston as it idles.

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Andy

01-08-2004 18:54:01

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Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Tom in Mo., 01-08-2004 18:30:29

Tom I dissagree with the exlposive burning theory. From my experience it is a slower burn with less inital but more sustained combustion. I think this is why LP's run quiet. My LP dealer told me LP is around 105 octane and varies a bit. There are old LP carbs and carbs that are out of adjustmen that aren't metering correctly anymore If LP is too lean it runs hot and can burn pistons/valves.

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01-09-2004 08:50:54

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Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Andy, 01-08-2004 18:54:01

You are right but it varies all the way to 130 octane range(N0:5 fuel) detonation causes the piston problem not the "explosion" and the burn rate is as you described.

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Tom in Mo.

01-08-2004 18:44:11

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Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Tom in Mo., 01-08-2004 18:30:29

The Minneapolis Moline factory shop and operating manuals don't do a great job of explaining the operation of LPG fuel. For a real good nuts and bolts explanation of propane for engine use I can recommend the Ford Tractor shop manual for the 1955-1960 series 600 thru 901 series tractors; and the John Deere series 2000 tractor shop manual #SM-2035. This is the Deere manual I have but any --10 or --20 series manual from the 1960's should have the same info.
The Ford book is usually available on Ebay for 10 to 20 bucks but the Deere book is higher.

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Andy

01-08-2004 18:30:08

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Re: LP gas theory in reply to Mopower, 01-08-2004 10:12:04

LP is a high octane fuel but it has less BTU's per gallon than gas or diesel. They put through a bit more fuel per hour because of this. If it is set up right ,(Compression and flow) it makes great power with a huge midrange tourque curve. This is because it burns slower and more complete throughout the whole stroke,(great for long stroked MM's). LP vapor mixes with air better than gasolene microdroplets from a carb. This helps low end lug when there's less intake turbulance as fuel seperation isn't a big problem. Because of this, you can run huge intakes and ports and not have fuel seperation problems. We pull LP MM's.

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Jeff

01-08-2004 20:00:32

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Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Andy, 01-08-2004 18:30:08

They burn a bit more fuel than gas? Haha I have just bought an Oliver 1800 LPG and it does alot more than a bit :) After buying it and checking the Nebraska tests on similar models I found that LP tractors burn almost twice as much gas as to regular gas tractors. However at the time most ofthem were built propane was about half as cheap or better than gas and the LP tractors would usually have a little more HP.

My understanding of the convertor is that it converts gas to liquid going into the carb and i do know that when you have one in a hard pull you run it on liquid instaed of vapor.

While we're on this , anyone have a good reason why the LP tractors are harder to start in the cold? Or at least I have more trouble getting them to.

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David Manring

01-09-2004 01:55:57

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Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Jeff, 01-08-2004 20:00:32

Jeff, why would you convert gas to liquid if it comes liquid out of the tank?Remember start on gas switch to liquid.Vaporizer means convert to vapor.

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Roger

01-08-2004 20:53:58

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Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Jeff, 01-08-2004 20:00:32

First of all. If your 1800 still has the original Zenith Vaporizer and Carberator on it. throw them away and get Impco or Century. DO NOT use the Zenith with any other brand. Zenith works on 5 to 6 lbs. pressure. Impco and Century work on 4 to 5 lbs. pressure. Your 1800 should start better on LP Gas than a gasoline tractor. I realize there are not many LP guys left that know how to work on LP carberation any more, but keep looking in your area. I am sure you will find one.

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Oklahomatractorrebuilder

01-08-2004 20:37:56

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Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Jeff, 01-08-2004 20:00:32

Propane is 130 octane and burns cleaner and hotter than gas. The secret is to get the carb set right. You say yours is hard to start? Find someone at your supplier who knows how to work on the old ensign system and get him to set it for you. Ours always start on the first or second turn no matter what the weather is.

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Jeff

01-09-2004 20:53:04

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Re: Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Oklahomatractorrebuilder, 01-08-2004 20:37:56

I think it still has the Zenith on it but can't remember. I'll check it tomorow and see. If i replace withan Ensign what carb should i use? Also if i go dwn on the working pressure will it use less fuel with close to the same HP or will any of that change? If it doesn't cost alot we already have a new Ensign convertor that we bought for another tractor, might need another carb but am not sure.

As for LP mechanics around this areaa we can't find any of them. We also have JD 720 LP that just had to have a new vaporizer on it and although alot of folks offered what sounded like good advice no one really told us alot about it. We learned the hard way , trial and error. We got alot of help on ytmag on the JD board also.

Yes it was hard to start Yesterday afternoon but it ws like 38 degrees also and i might have flooded it. We just got it last weekend and I haven't talked to the original owner to see what the trick it ( seems all tractors have one). I am probably gonna relace the plug wires and check and replace the plugs if needed as well as check the points. I am fairly certain that whatever I did I almost froze up the convertor as once it did start it wouldn't go above and idle for about 5-10 minutes then I am guessing once the water warmed everything back up it ran great!

Whoever owned it before us has installed a water heater tht you plug in I am guessing to get the heat to the vaporizer faster. One person mentioned starting it on gas then switching to liquid. According ot the labels on the valves that is what I am doing. the liquid is on the left and the gas is on the right if sitting in the seat. Or thats how they are labeled anyway.

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Oklahomatractorrebuilder

01-10-2004 07:49:12

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Jeff, 01-09-2004 20:53:04

If you still have a Zenith carb someone probually put in a spud to change to propane. If they did they are harder to start than the propane carb. They also work best with a Beam 120 regulator( vaporizer) than the others. The factory books from way back ( yes I am that old) say to start on vapor and change to liquid when warm. Are your labels mounted on the valves or welded on the tank? Most tanks are labeled. If not to check if the labels are right, make sure the tractor is outside, turn the valves off, loosen the propane line at the regulator and when the pressure is gone turn on the valve marked liquid a little and see if it produces liquid or vapor. Be careful as any spark will start a fire and the liquid will freeze your hands. As far as settings, it is usually just a trail and error deal. Tim

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Jeff again

01-10-2004 14:24:55

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Oklahomatractorrebuilder, 01-10-2004 07:49:12

Hey Tim thanks for al lthe info. I did some checking and I think I was trying to start and run the tractor on liquid instead of gas. The valves are labeled on the valves themselves but the problem is that it seemssomeone had to replace one and used another one labled liquid for that. When we bought the tractor it was running on the liquid valve that is easy to read so I figured that they were running it wrong. I used that one today and everything worked great. It started right up and I didn't watch the fuel hand move :)

Oh and it does have the Ensign gas system on it instead of the Zenith. I appreciate all of your information and help as i was really getting worried there for a little bit. Hehe was talking to dad this afternoon and he is thinking of now looking for some of the other brands on propane and start taking a few to shows. Around here in West Tn they are not real common and usually turn a few heads at the shows here.

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Roger

01-11-2004 07:26:42

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Jeff again, 01-10-2004 14:24:55

Look at the front of the engine block. There should be a 3 inch diameter round vaporizer mounted in the block. This was the original Zenith vaporizer. They were expensive to replace and hard to work on. Someone has replaced it with an Ensign. Check to see what brand the Carberator is. How much pressure you run does not effect fuel consumption. If you have the money change to the Impco or Century setup do so. The Zenith & Ensign work on a balance system. The Vaporizer and Carb work together to decide how much fuel the motor needs. Century and Impco work on the demand system. The motor tells the carberation how much fuel it needs. It is a much better system. I know it is not original but you will like the way it starts and runs a lot better. If your 1800 still has the vaporizer mounted in the front of the block, do not remove it. It is in a water passage and you need it to keep the hole closed. You can make a cover to replace it. As for the JD. They had to be different. They used Century Carberation but had there own front cover made for the vaporizer. Replace it with the standard Century cover. It will have a small spring loaded "push button" that yu can use to prime (choke) it to help get it started.

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Jeff

01-11-2004 12:43:08

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Roger, 01-11-2004 07:26:42

I can't see where there was anything on the front if this tractor and the ensign system is mounted behind the motor. It has an ensign carb also. This is a late 1964 model and the IT book I have says that Oliver switched tothis system sometime so I am thinking that is it from the factory like that.

I figured out that we were starting and running it on liquid instead of vapor and once I started using the right vavle it starts and runs great. Doesn't seem to use as much fuel either but then again it's not like we are going to put a crop in with it :) I am planning on using it some around here and taking it to shows,stuff like that. If it were going to be an everyday user I would probably convert it to plain gas as it would be alot easier to fill up and stuff.

I will look into the other systems though and see what it would cost to convert it. So far just using the vapor works real good as it was about 29 this morning when i fired it up.

Thanks again!!

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Oklahomatractorrebuilder

01-10-2004 15:20:06

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Jeff again, 01-10-2004 14:24:55

Jeff I wish you luck with the propane. We run everything except the putor vehicles on it. The only reason the newer vehicles are on gas is it cost way to much for the system for them. You might look into a 250 or 500 gallon tank to be put at your house with a wet line. It allows us to fill up here and saves money for us. One thing to watch for with a propane tractor is they lock up easier if setting too long, propane is very dry and allows them to stick. A little diesel down the plug holes will usually get them free though. Anymore problems let me know. Tim

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David

01-27-2004 19:32:00

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Oklahomatractorrebuilder, 01-10-2004 15:20:06

Hi--

I recall a discussion somewhere a year or so ago concerning 'horror stories' about difficulty people were having in acquiring the equipment necessary to fuel their own LP equipment using their own on-farm LP tanks. If one were to obtain a tank with a wet line, what else would be needed to fill the tractor tank? Where can one obtain these items? I know that they have a pump on the tank at the hardware store where I have my 30lb cylinder filled. Certainly the hose is special also.

Feel free to email me. Thanks.

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Oklahomatractorrebuilder

01-27-2004 20:22:45

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to David, 01-27-2004 19:32:00

David according to the propane shops you need a pump to fill a tank, but the pump cost something like $2000.00 to buy. For years the older farmers just used a vapor bleeding fitting to hook up to the vapor line and a LPG filler hose (yes it is a special hose made for LPG). When the pressure in the tank needing filled is lower than the nurse tank the liquid LPG flows into the tank being filled and the vapor escapes to the air. You have to be careful about any sparks or flames near by. Or if you aren't in a hurry hook the filler line up over night and the next morning the tank needing filled will be full with out bleeding. Myself I am using the same nurse tank my father used back in the LPG days ( 50's and 60's) with a 1 inch LPG hose 30 ft long that came off of a LPG tank truck (law says they have to replace them every 2 years here) about 10 years ago. Every thing you need can be bought at any full blown Propane shop ( not at these cylinder exchange places) or from a wholesaler for LPG parts like Meeder Supply. We order all our parts and hoses direct from Meeder and save a bundle. Tim

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Jeff

01-10-2004 11:41:00

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Oklahomatractorrebuilder, 01-10-2004 07:49:12

Fixing to go up and look at everything right now. It is a factory propane tractor as the serial plate has LPG stamped on it.The carb looks like it was made for propane but then again its not like i have seen alot of them anyway. I'll take my camera amd get some pictures of it and see if tht helps figure it out any. The valves up at the dash are labe,ed on the handles themselves.I'll check them again to see if the tank is stamped also.

Thanks for all the info as I am kinda new to all of the LPG stuff. I should have a factory owners manual coming for it next week so maybe that will help some also.

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Andy

01-09-2004 05:46:58

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Re: Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Oklahomatractorrebuilder, 01-08-2004 20:37:56

I checked the octane rating online and www.mipga.org rates it at 104. there is a performance propane called HD-5 rated at 118 octane. Check out alternateracing.com cool site with some wild LP setups.

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01-09-2004 19:04:01

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Andy, 01-09-2004 05:46:58

Yah i also heard LP is 104 to 105 octane, or atleast thats what two of our local dealers told us....thats the propane used and heaters and such if that makes a difference?Thats what we used in our propane tractor

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Andy

01-09-2004 08:50:44

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Andy, 01-09-2004 05:46:58

Sorry, mistyped a website, should be www.alternatefuelsracing.com

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Oklahomatractorrebuilder

01-09-2004 06:06:00

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to Andy, 01-09-2004 05:46:58

All I know is here when you get certified to work on propane the state gives you a card with propane specs on it and it shows propane at 130 octane. I know for a fact that you can run 12 to 1 compression in a truck and have no preignition noise and get great power. Tim

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David manring

01-08-2004 17:36:21

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Re: LP gas theory in reply to Mopower, 01-08-2004 10:12:04

It is liquid under pressure, goes to the vaporizer as a liquid, heat from water in cooling system heats it and turns to vapor. Pulled to carb and metered in. Two valves on tank, vapor and liquid. Use vapor when cold till water heats up to switch over to liquid. 100 plus octane, very clean burning.

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steveormary

01-08-2004 21:06:41

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Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to David manring, 01-08-2004 17:36:21

A long time ago I had the pleasure of operating a propane fueled MM U Standard. We used it for tillage work. The most I could put thru it was 3 gal/hr.

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lrp

01-13-2004 07:31:46

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Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to steveormary, 01-08-2004 21:06:41

We've run lp in our pickups as well as tractors for many years. As previously mentioned the octane level can vary. The variants include the relative amounts of propane,butane,propylene as well as other minute gases that come off with the distilation of the product. HD-5 which is the standard in the propane industry has set amounts of these other gases. If one wishes to increase the BTU's of the fuel,one can add selected amounts of the other gases. If this is done you have to keep in mind the octane levels so that your increased power is not offset by pre-ignition. We've experimented with different fuel combinations for years.

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craig

01-18-2004 18:01:17

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Re: Re: Re: Re: LP gas theory in reply to lrp, 01-13-2004 07:31:46

What do you use to increase the octane and the btu? thanks

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