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Massey Harris & Massey Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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Sound off!! detergent or non-detergent???

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tractor dan

05-30-2004 12:18:26




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The age old debate as to whether to put detergent oil in an old engine!! Please put your personal experiences on the website. Does anybody have any actual personal experience with problems with an old engine that can be directly related to an oil switch? (no old wives tales please).




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Jerry/MT

05-31-2004 22:05:40




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 Re: Sound off!! detergent or non-detergent??? in reply to tractor dan, 05-30-2004 12:18:26  
If you read the owners manual for the TO-30 Ferguson, it doesn't say you can't use detergent oils (called Heavy Duty oils back in the '50's) The engine was designed to used non-detergent oils for economic reasons;they were cheaper. In fact here's what the manual says: "For most operations a Regular Grade engine oil is satisfactory. Premium and heavy duty oils contain detergents which hold carbon and other foreign particles in suspension until the particles are removed by the filter. The premium and heavey duty oils, therefore offer advantages
not obtained with regular grade oils"(Reference: Ferguson TO-30 Owners Manual,page 22)I have to disagree with my fellow Hoosier Ray,IN about the suitability of detergent oils in these old engines. I would never use anything but a detergent oil in my 1954 TO-30.

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Mark

06-05-2004 13:00:38




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 Re: Re: Sound off!! detergent or non-detergent??? in reply to Jerry/MT, 05-31-2004 22:05:40  
If I remember right,in my manual it also suggests flushing out the crankcase on an annual basis to remove accumulated dirt and sludge.How many owners do that? Back to the topic,if an engine is sluged up and dirty,it is due to lack of maintenance,not the oil.Even if ND oil is used and changed with the filter when it is supposed to be ,the engine will stay reasonably clean,and changing to a detergent oil wil not hurt it.But if the tractor has its oil changed once a year,not flushed out,sits around idling,and is seldom used it will sludge up no matter what type of oil is used in it.Condensation is not burned out of it,gas gets past the rings on frequent start/stop cycles,it doesn't get up to temperature and sludge builds.

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youngster

05-31-2004 17:43:06




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 Re: Sound off!! detergent or non-detergent??? in reply to tractor dan, 05-30-2004 12:18:26  
i put detergent oil in all my old stuff that is clean without a prob. now i would not put detergent oil in my 1939-1942 TD-14 as i popped that valve cover and it is very dirty. it would surely clog. just payed 10.88 for 2 gal of sae30 at tractor supply time2 for a toltal of 4 gal and 6.50 a picea pof oil filter th\imes 2



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txblu

06-01-2004 10:11:39




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 Re: Re: Sound off!! detergent or non-detergent??? in reply to youngster, 05-31-2004 17:43:06  
Say Youngster,

How's you and your old man getting along these days? Has he gotten any smarter yet? If not just give him time. He'll come around.



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Cosmo

05-31-2004 07:21:18




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 Re: Sound off!! detergent or non-detergent??? in reply to tractor dan, 05-30-2004 12:18:26  
I had a John Deere M (circa 1949) for a few years. I have an FE 35 (1958) now. I have no idea what was used in them before. I use the same detergent oil in everything from my lawn mower to my vehicles (keeps it simple). Ain't had any problem that can be traced to using detergent oil. Not an old wives tale, just an old ex-husband's.



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sibby(Aus)

05-31-2004 03:48:43




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 Re: Sound off!! detergent or non-detergent??? in reply to tractor dan, 05-30-2004 12:18:26  
Tractor Dan , i have personally seen lots of engines ruined from detergent oil that were running as sweet and quiet as you could wish for, i am talking about older engines that were not using that much oil but had a large number of hours and still performing satisfactorily. The higher detergent oil does, and i repeat DOES loosen up a sludged engine and remove sludge and carbon from around pistons and rings, and chokes and ruins con rod and main crankshaft bearings due to oil starvation. they start smoking and knocking and self destruct in no time if they are worked and loaded up, hell, do as you wish but i would not put it in my engines if you paid me. On an engine that has been acid cleaned and reconditioned i have used it with great results, i await for a few replies with great anticipation. my .02c worth.

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txblu

05-31-2004 06:33:47




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 Re: Re: Sound off!! detergent or non-detergent??? in reply to sibby(Aus), 05-31-2004 03:48:43  
Hmm. Aussie speak truth. That is THE problem with switching. Doesn't ruin anything, just brings your sins (worn parts) out in front of you where you can see that you were running on borrowed time.

txblu



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Ray,IN

05-30-2004 20:52:06




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 Re: Sound off!! detergent or non-detergent??? in reply to tractor dan, 05-30-2004 12:18:26  
No debate! I follow the owners manual recommendations for my Harry Ferguson tractor where it states to use single weight non-detergent oils. Dad bought this TO30 new in 1953, now I own it. It does not use any apprecable amount of oil between semiannual oil/filter changes, perhaps a pint. The engine has never been apart for any reason, not even a valve adjustment. I don't pretend to know more than the design engineers.

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txblu

05-31-2004 06:43:50




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 Re: Re: Sound off!! detergent or non-detergent??? in reply to Ray,IN, 05-30-2004 20:52:06  
With unleaded gas and non-detergent oil, I'd bet your oil stays honey colored all the time.

----- ----- ---
Don't remember when detergent oil was introduced.

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Detergent oils were developed to keep sludge in suspension so that the oil filter could trap the larger particles and the smaller ones stay with the oil when drained. Some petroleum/automotive design engineer figured that a clean engine is a happy engine.
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Problem with additives (detergent) it's not oil and not lube and anything you put in the oil reduces it's ability to lube. So that's the down side.
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One more thing. There is a thing called "extreme pressure lube" which is the ability of the lube to remain between metal when you squeeze the 2 metals together. Newer detergents added to engine oils help the oil to stay put under pressure.
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Lastly, in the days of ND oil, automotive engines would need valves at 45k miles and overhaul at 80k. Today you can run an engine 250k and never crack the head. Suppose lube has anything to do with that? I know unleaded gas does but absolutely lube helps.

my 2c.

Mark

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sibby(Aus)

05-31-2004 23:35:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Sound off!! detergent or non-detergent in reply to txblu, 05-31-2004 06:43:50  
Hey Tex, i cant see how there could be any link with oil cracking cylinder heads. engine development has come to a level only dreamed of before, take for instance say a Subaru wrx, lots of power output from a 2 litre engine, compared to say any old 2000 c.c. engine. yes, the detergent oil of today is designed for a purpose, look at compression ratios, engine r.p.m.,s. todays vehicles cruise effortlessly at~1500-1700 revs@ say 100 klms or your 60 m.p.h. how many revs did the older vehicles do at that speed, would you say double or close.? today you start with a new engine, fuel injected, thus metering a perfect fuel ratio for clean running, oxygen sensors, temp sensors to regulate fuel richness at a given temp, no flooding, accelerator pump to give a couple of pumps to assist starting, no screaming revs(unless you are a hoon or leadfoot). add up the amount of revs an older car did compared to todays car, it has to be double for a fact. your oil has to stay cleaner with these facts in mind, also unleaded is a cleaner fuel. as for the old wives tale you can put detergent in your old engine, i WONT, and i repeat, i repeat, i never will because i have witnessed the results a good 20- 25 times, and i will never recommend it to anyone with an old engine, unless it has been thoroughly cleaned and reconditioned. Enough said, have a good day and cheers for now.

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txblu

06-01-2004 10:08:53




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Sound off!! detergent or non-deter in reply to sibby(Aus), 05-31-2004 23:35:05  
It's a term meaning there is no maintenance of any significance performed on an engine. Cracking a head is breaking it loose from the block when you remove it the first time which was usually to grind the valves at 45,000 miles.

Cheers,

Mark



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sibby(Aus)

06-01-2004 13:19:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sound off!! detergent or non-d in reply to txblu, 06-01-2004 10:08:53  
Sorry Mark, down under we call a cracked head, a cracked head. cooee cobber.



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Allan C

05-30-2004 21:05:31




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 Re: Re: Sound off!! detergent or non-detergent??? in reply to Ray,IN, 05-30-2004 20:52:06  
Here's the deal as I see it. If the engine is recently overhauled, and all nice and clean inside, you can use any oil you want, and the better the oil, the better it is. If you have an old and dirty motot there is some danger that the detergent may loosten up the sludge in the engine and plug something. I have never had this happen, and I think it isn't very likely unless it's quite dirty. Like sludge buildup in the valve mechanism. If it looks at all clean, I would use the detergent oil.

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sibby(Aus)

05-31-2004 23:41:49




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 Re: Re: Re: Sound off!! detergent or non-detergent in reply to Allan C, 05-30-2004 21:05:31  
Allan, what if the clean valve train engine had a recent head gasket replacement or valve grind say, what do you think the inside of the crankcase would look like?



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springtown spark

06-02-2004 09:58:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Sound off!! detergent or non-deter in reply to sibby(Aus), 05-31-2004 23:41:49  
Because my Dad said so! Good enough for me !
I sold a little Alice garden tractor I had come accross that had trouble with the spindles on the deck. I replaced the spindles, mowed awhile with it and sold it. Had an exellent running Briggs motor on it that didn't use any oil. That tractor was about 10 or 12 years old. The guy that bought it brought it back to me a month and a half later wondering why it wouldn't run and where all the oil came from. Had a hole behind the starter. He had switched oil and put a 20w-50 in it because he had heard some hipe about running better, cleaner and cooler at high temp. I'm throughly convinced switching to a detergent oil is what ruined that motor for the reasons Sibby explained in his posts. And yes my Dad told me straight 30W in small engines and tractors. 10W-30 in the winter and 10W-40 in the summer in my pickup. That is a rule I've stuck to for almost forty years and truley beleive I can't go wrong in doing so. If manufacturer's specs. called for something differant I'd use it. But unlike some and a lot like others I can't afford to get a manual for every machine or engine I've come accross and I stick to Dad's rule. May he rest in peace. Thanks for letting me sound off. Dan

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sibby(Aus)

06-02-2004 23:13:44




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sound off!! detergent or non-d in reply to springtown spark, 06-02-2004 09:58:21  
Dan, i have always stuck to the same rule regarding engine oil, Unless i know without a doubt that the engine has been properly cleaned thoroughly internally and has been running on a detergent oil ever since. I always try to find out an engines history like what brand of oil and what grade of oil and STICK to it, what if it costs a coupla dollars more, cheap breakdown insurance isnt it. Anyone can use whatever oil they like, doesnt bother me, i am only answering a post and i stick to my own observations from experience, not hear say or OLD WIVES tales as has been suggested. If anyone wants to put in detergent oil in an unknown engine, go right ahead, it dont bother me one bit. cheers.

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