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4440 block heater won't work- HELP

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Mike3

01-23-2003 09:31:04




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I have a 1982, 4440PS That I can't get a block heater to work with.The Deere Dealer installed 4 new heating elements that won't heat up the coolant.The coolant is JD Coolguard safe to -30f. when they put the elements in a can of water they work just fine, but not when screwed into the block, they have tried DETEC but the 4440 is too old to be supported by them. Their company service man has been no help. Yes I have plugged it in to a good electrical service.The element has continuity, and I can hear it sizzling when plugged in,but nothing warms up. Any suggestions welcome. Thanks

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Lee

01-24-2003 12:09:38




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 Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to Mike3, 01-23-2003 09:31:04  
I just put a new block heater from Deere in my backhoe this week. Didn't start it yet. This weekend I'll try. Heater is making noises and I felt the block with the back of my hand and it is very, very warm! All good signs so far. The backhoe is kept outside and it has been brutal cold. I hope all goes well, you guys got me scared!
Wish me luck.



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G-MAN

01-23-2003 13:47:30




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 Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to Mike3, 01-23-2003 09:31:04  
Mike, I'm sitting here with another JD tech with over 20 years of experience, and we just came up with kind of a crazy thought. What if your thermostats are stuck completely or partially open? Our thought is that if that were the case, the warmed coolant may be flowing up through the upper hose and into the radiator, where it cools off much more quickly than it normally would in the block - kind of like an old thermosiphon system. If the thermostats are closed (like they should be), the coolant is more or less trapped in the block and the heat can't go anywhere. It may sound far-fetched, but it's all I can come up with. And since you've obviously drained the coolant several times to try different heaters, it won't be a big deal to drain it and replace the thermostats. Given that the radiator's whole function is to exchange heat, its going to do an effective job of it at 15 degrees, even with no water pump circulating the coolant or fan pulling air through it. Give it a try and post back. You should be able to tell by looking at them if the thermostats are stuck open.

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Thanks everyone I Got a 220v heater from Deere

01-24-2003 07:37:29




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 Re: Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to G-MAN, 01-23-2003 13:47:30  
As the tech stated below he got a 220v heater element packaged wrong from Deere I also got several of those.They don't workwell with 110v. Thank you Everyone for all the help. At least the temp has gotten above 15below now and everything seems to work better at+5* I also have to thank the tech at my dealer who had to keep replacing that dam wrong element
I think some outside vendor to Deere might have got a certain lot of these things mixed up. Mike3

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G Taylor.........1/4 of the heat

01-24-2003 09:11:06




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 Re: Re: Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to Thanks everyone I Got a 220v heater from Deere, 01-24-2003 07:37:29  
Hmmmmm. Good catch, didn't think of the stuck open thermosat either that's one to remember. Rare is the service person who thinks a problem through instead of throwing parts at a problem. A 1000W 240V heater on 120 volts would put out only 250W of heat. Certainly explains your problem.



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G Taylor

01-23-2003 11:37:42




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 Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to Mike3, 01-23-2003 09:31:04  
What wattage is the heater, 1500W sounds pretty big for a "frost plug" type. Likely 660W to 1000W. As the previous posts have said, it's a lot of metal and a weenie little heater. If the tractor has any wind hitting it at all it may never get warm to the touch.Also as previously mentioned, if she's sizzling she's heating. Some heaters are sized for rapid warm-up and smaller wattage heaters for equipment plugged in 24/7. Battery warmers are just as important for cold weather starts. A cold battery just won't produce current or take a charge.

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Harry Dahlin

01-23-2003 12:58:37




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 Re: Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to G Taylor, 01-23-2003 11:37:42  
G. Taylor: If she's sizzling, she's cooking!!



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Mike3

01-23-2003 11:47:34




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 Re: Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to G Taylor, 01-23-2003 11:37:42  
G taylor, this is the OEM JOhn Deere 1,000watt heater usually a pretty reliable unit that gives very little trouble. I'm not concerned about getting it warm to touch-just warm enough to start it. When they are working right that 6-466 engine will get warm to touch at -15f. inside the tin machine shed. Ileave it plugged in 24-7in winter. It will get warm enough to start like summer time.



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G-MAN

01-23-2003 10:48:02




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 Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to Mike3, 01-23-2003 09:31:04  
If the heater is located in the standard Deere 400 series position (as I'm sure it is) - right by the coolant drain and and in front of the oil cooler in the block, that is the best and basically the only place for it. That location is close to the liners and low on the cooling jacket so warmed coolant can rise up from there. There basically isn't any other place in the block to install it, as Deere 6466 blocks don't have core plugs. That large threaded hole is there for a block heater and nothing else. If it is "sizzling", that's an obvious indication that it's functioning. It's not uncommon for them to make that noise when first plugged in - I've heard it many times on many different tractors. It's also highly unlikely that you're going to have an air pocket of that size in the bottom of the block cooling passages. Deere 400 series engines are very good about not forming air pockets. I haven't seen that problem with any of the dozens I've had the coolant out of, for one reason or another. The bottom line is that I'm still sticking with my theory that you're just not giving it enough time to function correctly. Even after several hours, the block may not be "warm" to the touch, but the coolant should be significantly above ambient temp, and the tractor should start much easier. That alone should be the prime indication of how well it is functioning. The prior post about making sure it's not touching metal is also correct. Swivel it in it's holder - it should turn several degrees in both directions. Position it in the middle of those two extremes.

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MIke3

01-23-2003 11:23:36




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 Re: Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to G-MAN, 01-23-2003 10:48:02  
Gman, thanks, but since I have 2 4440s and a combine with the same engine and am in southern minnesota I know how the heater is suppose to function, the heater can be left plugged in over nightwith the cab heater control in the off position but still get no coolant warming. MY dealer techs are pulling their hair out over this oneI think the element is working, but why no heat? Yes the heater is the one that you described above. the engine has been operated two hours since the heater wwas last installed and the cab heater works better than any sound guard cab heatr I have seen. So I doubt an air pocket. This engine has never been taken apart. I'm just trying to think of anything that might affect this warming problem Thanks for the imput. MIke3

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John T

01-23-2003 10:59:55




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 Re: Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to G-MAN, 01-23-2003 10:48:02  
Hey G Man, I lost that neat G Pic u sent me long ago when I lost all my e mails recently. Glad to hear your story that the heater loation is in a good proper place. I agree 100000 0% that its gonna take a longgggg gggg time for that little heater to raise the temp of the coolant over such a large volume and mass, especially to the point the block actually feels warmer. Only 1500 watts of energy into that large volume of mass is transferign heat away about faster then youre putting in which is gonna take a long time to ever warm up lol. Same as you, when we owned semi trucks or diesels in extreme cold, we plugged them in and left them. I bought 2 semis in S. Sioux City Nebraska? at a Taylor and Martin Truck Auction in Jan of 1978 that big cold blizzard (was -25 the night before the truck auction) and we were stranded in Chicago and we never shut them trucks off till we got em home and sold them. Ol John T

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John T

01-23-2003 10:19:44




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 Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to Mike3, 01-23-2003 09:31:04  
Mike, if it has volage, is drawing ample current (have you ever put a clamp on ammeter and measured its current draw?) (If its like a 1500 watt heater at 120 volts, it should be drawing around 12 amps) has continuity, and is actually heating and you hear her sizzlin, looks like that rules out an electrical problem.

Are there other choices of locations for use on that tractor???

As you know, anti freeze isnt as good a thermal conductor as water, and Im not familiar with the anti-freeze youre using. Depending on the physical location the heater is in and its size and fluid flow characteristics in that area, perhaps shes too hot for a too small fluid volume area shes immersed in, such that boiling is taking place which emits steam and bubbles and air isnt as good a heat conductor (compared to water)???

Maybe if the unit were in a larger volume mass of fluid (like not tucked down in a small volume bend area etc) with better flow which transferred its heat away better, she may not overheat, the surrounding coolant would gradually rise and disperse heat over a wider area.

As Ive often said on this board, Im am electrical not a mechanical or thermo engineer, so if shes drawign current and the elements working and her heat transfer properties are ok (i.e. shes not coated over reducing heat transfer) then the only thing I can think of is a heat transfer problem due to low volume or it being in a poor flow area. Let us know what you find out. Ol John T Nordhoff

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phil

01-23-2003 10:04:53




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 Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to Mike3, 01-23-2003 09:31:04  
Replaced one in a 4630 last fall, bought the part from a JD dealer, didn't encounter problems, I recall that the element has to be rotated away from metal, then tightened. You say 'I can hear it sizzling' - that may be be an indication of the problem, you may have an air pocket in the block. If the element was submerged in coolant, there would be no sizzling because the temp is way below boiling. But if the element was only 'wet', it would boil the moisture off (sizzle) for a few minutes until it was dry.

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G-MAN

01-23-2003 09:58:04




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 Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to Mike3, 01-23-2003 09:31:04  
How long are you leaving it plugged in before you check for the coolant to be warm? It won't just heat right up in an hour or two. You're heating 8 or 9 gallons of coolant and about 2000 lbs of cast iron and steel, which can take several hours based on ambient temp. If the element is working outside the tractor, there is no reason for it to be not working when installed in the block. They also work much better when the engine is somewhat warm to begin with. Heating an entire engine and cooling system from 10 degrees will take a while. I recommend leaving it plugged in for about 6 or 8 hours and see what happens. We leave tractors plugged in all day when it's this cold out (-10 F), because otherwise they wouldn't start at night.

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Mike3

01-23-2003 11:35:45




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 Re: Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to G-MAN, 01-23-2003 09:58:04  
Gman, I agree with what you are saying above since this 4440 is a chore tractor that has to run every day it and all our other daily user tractors (4440 &4020D & 730DCE) are always left plugged in over night in winter this is one of those fluke problems, but need tofigure out an answer it started today -15f. with ether. Thanks for all the interest.



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Mike J

01-23-2003 19:01:45




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 Re: Re: Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to Mike3, 01-23-2003 11:35:45  
I had a tank heater that would not heat but you could hear it spark at the plug when you plugged it in at the plug . I changed the heater it still did not heat so i called an electricion it ended up that the nutural wire in the fuse box had a very poor connection.



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mike francis

01-23-2003 19:54:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to Mike J, 01-23-2003 19:01:45  
I think there is two different elements for the heaters is the block, I put new one in customers 8430 pain in the wazoo, it did the same thing your done, turned out to be 220 heater not 110, had to drain the thing out AGAIN and go back to JD to get the right element, they said it must have been freek deal that was packaged wrong, just a wild guess but thats what happened to me.



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CPeter

01-24-2003 06:52:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to mike francis, 01-23-2003 19:54:39  
This is the best answer yet. I too, have seen 240V elements used where 120V was the voltage. Gets warm but not hot. The best way it to check the resistance with a ohmmeter.

CPeter



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G-MAN

01-24-2003 07:31:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to CPeter, 01-24-2003 06:52:09  
Except for the fact that he tried four different elements - all new and from the dealer. The odds of all four being wrong are extremely long.



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G-MAN

01-24-2003 09:59:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to G-MAN, 01-24-2003 07:31:21  
I stand corrected, lol.



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mike francis

01-24-2003 18:11:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 4440 block heater won't work- HELP in reply to G-MAN, 01-24-2003 09:59:09  
Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in while.



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