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430 rebuild question

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Bguy

12-26-2002 20:14:45




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I have a 430 that I have had the head rebuilt and I put new rings in. It starts and runs good but it smokes when you let off of the throttle. In other words, at full throttle it runs good and does not smoke, when you let off the throttle it blows blue smoke as the engine winds down. I put a couple of hours runs time on it thinking maybe the rings needed to set but it didn't change much. I pulled he head off and had another shop look at it and it checked out OK. So, what else could it be? Think a ring may be broken?

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ChuckW

12-27-2002 16:46:17




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 Re: 430 rebuild question in reply to Bguy, 12-26-2002 20:14:45  
Bguy, I have studied your post and the replys. It seems like two subjects are being discussed. Seating of compression rings and oil coming by the oil control rings. I don't think seating has much to do with your problem. I would suspect a lack of proper expansion of your oil rings. Did you install expanders, properly install the oil rings. These are very touchy.



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Bguy

12-27-2002 08:46:42




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 Re: 430 rebuild question in reply to Bguy, 12-26-2002 20:14:45  
Thanks for the replys! I had new valve guides put in when the heads were rebuilt and they used the umbrella seals. As for the break in, I drove it around a little and then let it set for awhile running at about 3/4 throttle. I has good oil pressure and the compression was at about 130 pounds right after I finished it but I have not checked it lately. I don't know if I have chrome rings or not, I bought these thru the JD dealer. Think I need to just let it run awhile longer? I don't really have a way to put a load on it right now other than just driveing it a round up and down hills. Any other ideas or things to check would be appreciated. Otherwise I'll just tear it back down and start over.

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G-MAN

12-27-2002 10:51:11




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 Re: Re: 430 rebuild question in reply to Bguy, 12-27-2002 08:46:42  
I'm not a Dubuque expert, but based on general engine knowledge and a lot of experience with new and rebuilt engines, it sounds to me like you need to work that thing and get it broken in. I would also recommend putting JD break-in oil in it, as it will definitely speed the break-in process. We use it on all overhauls and have excellent luck with it, and it's factory fill on all new JD engines - good stuff. Modern oils are getting so good that the anti-wear and detergent packages prevent the initial wear that is crucial to proper break-in. JD Torq-Gard Plus 50 is so good that JD basically guarantees that you will have oil consumption problems when using it to try to break in new or overhauled engines, and our experience has found that to be true. I would put in break-in oil and try to get some dyno time or find some other way to get the engine loaded up good. Don't lug it excessively or let it idle excessively (also bad on new engines - and idling is running at any speed without a load), but work it hard enough to warm it up good and get those parts seated in. Good luck with the 430.

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Bguy

12-27-2002 13:05:41




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 Re: Re: Re: 430 rebuild question in reply to G-MAN, 12-27-2002 10:51:11  
Well guys, I guess I'll try running it some more before tearing into it again. I don't have any JD break in oil and the local dealer is closed until after the 1st so do you think I should try some 10w oil to try to break it in? I have a trailer that I can load up with some weights for the tractor to pull and make it work a little.



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G-MAN

12-27-2002 13:25:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 430 rebuild question in reply to Bguy, 12-27-2002 13:05:41  
You can try it, but I won't guarantee it will work to run 10W oil. Clooney or one of the other old hands can probably give you better advice on that score. I would feel much better about waiting til you can get the break-in oil. I've seen a couple engines that would not seat in after being run for a while improperly, and they had to be disassembled and lightly honed to get the rings to seat. Once there is a glaze to the cylinder walls, you're going to have a tough time getting the rings seated. And if the previous posts about chrome rings are accurate, and I have no reason to believe they're not, that may compound the problem further. The old Cat service manuals suggested mixing in some Borax or other slightly abrasive detergent in with the oil to aid the break-in process, but I've never tried that one. It isn't so much about just loading the engine to a certain point, but keeping it at that point long enough to do some good, and then varying the load to another level for a period of time. Kind of like the old car owners manuals that recommend running at 50 mph for so many miles, then dropping to 30 for so many miles and so on. That's why a dyno is the only really good way to break in an engine - because you can control the load and the amount of time that load is applied.

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Clooney

12-27-2002 15:37:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 430 rebuild question in reply to G-MAN, 12-27-2002 13:25:46  
G-MAN, pretty well covered it. Once the cylinders glaze up, adding break-in oil probably won't help.
~You can try 10 weight oil [that's what I usually use] but get the cheapest 10 weight you can buy, the less additives the better. ~You really should get a load on it. The harder you can work it [within reason] the better. When you get a load on it look at the engine breather & see if there is smoke coming out of it. If not, you probably don't have a ring seating problem & your problem is elsewhere. If it only smokes on over-run, that usually points to a ring to piston land problem, or an oil ring installed wrong, or plugged oil slots under the oil ring, or some other reason the rings aren't sealing & scraping the oil off the cylinder walls. ~I strongly don't recommend the Bon-Ami ring seating process. That involves abrasives in the combustion chamber & it usually gets by the rings & ends up in the bearings. ~If you suspect the rings aren't sealing due to break-in, try the Deere break-in oil, or cheap 10 weight oil & run the carb a little on the rich side to wash the cylinder walls a little.
~You might be surprised what a little engine load for a few hours will do for it.

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G-MAN

12-28-2002 07:46:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 430 rebuild question in reply to Clooney, 12-27-2002 15:37:39  
I don't think I would try the detergent break-in either. The old engines that was recommended for are a far cry from what we have today - huge displacements, huge bearings, low speeds and very low power output for the displacement, so a little wear in the bearings probably wouldn't hurt much on one of those dinosaurs. Oils, filters and air filtration systems weren't near what we have today, so most of those engines had a fair amount of contaminants in the oil pretty much from the get-go. I've seen the detergent recommended for break-in both ways - introduced into the engine through the intake system and mixed right in with the oil. I'd like to hear from someone that has done that in the past and how well it worked.

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Clooney

12-28-2002 08:17:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 430 rebuild question in reply to G-MAN, 12-28-2002 07:46:35  
G-MAN, years ago when I first started working with engines, that Bon-Ami down the carb trick to seat reluctant to seat rings was the accepted practice with the general mechanic population & while I hate to admit it, I did use it more than a few times. When the auto manufactures found out about it & ran some tests, service bulletins started to appear saying not to do that for obvious reasons. ~It's kind of like the service bulletins going out now to stop the use of rotating Scotch type pads on die grinders & right angle sanders to clean head gasket, intake manifold & oil pan gasket areas. The auto manufactures have found through testing & warranty inspections that the small fibers that come from those rotating Scotch pads are too small to get reliably caught by the oil filters & end up embedded in the bearings & effecting hydraulic valve lifters..

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G-MAN

12-28-2002 09:07:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 430 rebuild question in reply to Clooney, 12-28-2002 08:17:42  
Good point on the Scotch-brite disks. Deere obviously doesn't use hydraulic lifters, but they can cause other problems when used by technicians with less than the proper care. Some guys don't realize that those disks will remove the base metal just about as effectively as the gasket material, and I've seen a few parts ruined because of it. Aluminum parts especially don't like those disks too much. But, if used properly, they are a good product and a great time-saver.

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Wayne in Tn.

12-27-2002 10:30:09




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 Re: Re: 430 rebuild question in reply to Bguy, 12-27-2002 08:46:42  
BGuy, unless you specifically ask for steel, most will be chrome. Before I would tear it back down, I would run it a while, get it hot a few times. If the rings are chrome, I have heard some people say that they never seated for them?????



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Clooney

12-27-2002 05:35:34




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 Re: 430 rebuild question in reply to Bguy, 12-26-2002 20:14:45  
Bguy, the usual cause of over-run oil puffing on those Dubuque's is loose valve guides or worn valve stems, but you could have worn piston ring grooves or other engine related problems causing high vacuum oil burning. Was there a lot of side clearance of the rings in the piston grooves, cylinder out-of-round, or cylinder taper? If so that is a place to look.
~You should make sure the breather isn't plugged, if the upper end can't breath it will push oil past the valve guides.
~If you suspect loose or worn valve guides you might try to install a set of umbrella type valve stem seals.
~Are you getting much smoke out of the breather when the engine is under load? If so, the rings are probably not seated yet or the cylinder bores aren't round.
~As Gordon said, you might want to give it some more break-in time. Then if it doesn't get better with more running time you will have to determine if your problem is valve guide, piston ring, or cylinder bore related. ~Once it is broken in, you might try switching to straight 30 weight oil if you are running a 10 W 30 or 10 W 40 in it now..... .

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Gordon

12-26-2002 22:04:04




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 Re: 430 rebuild question in reply to Bguy, 12-26-2002 20:14:45  
Where the guides put in? Was there a good honeing done on the cyl? If this is all good it can take up to 50 or 100 hrs to seat the rings. It can maybe go faster under load.What oil are you useing? Plus when one overhauls an engine there can be more oil on top of piston, this will take longer to burn off by idleing.



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Wayne in Tn.

12-27-2002 07:01:16




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 Re: Re: 430 rebuild question in reply to Gordon, 12-26-2002 22:04:04  
To add to all the above, what type of rings did you use? If you put Chrome in it, they will take forever to seat. I always use Steel rings and never have any problems with smoking. The number for the steel is Hastings # 7654 these are available at Carquest or any auto parts store. Also since those heads did not come with any valve seals, I always have my machine shop to install the old Chevy umbrella seals just for insurance.

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