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1951 B 6v to 12v Questions.

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Moto Head

12-05-2002 15:22:24




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I've been reading some of the other posts on the "A" and "B" conversions ( 6-12volts ). I have a 12volt batt., changed all the bulbs to 12v, bought a 12v regulator for my generator. The tractor has a Wico self contained coil dist, with a single wire running to it. Is this called a Magneto? (which I thought generated their own power) or is this a distributer with a coil built in? I am trying to figure out what I have and how to wire it correctly to a 12 volt system...

Thanks, MH

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51 B

12-05-2002 17:23:16




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 Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Moto Head, 12-05-2002 15:22:24  
I haven't read all the posts but has anyone else
encountered a 12 volt B spining over too fast as to disengauge the mag impulse.



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Clooney

12-05-2002 17:43:46




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 Re: Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to 51 B, 12-05-2002 17:23:16  
51 B, that's probably possible, but if it spins that fast it probably doesn't need the impulse anyhow.
~Usually when the are spun on 12 volts they start in only a couple of revolutions so they don't get going that fast.



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Clooney

12-05-2002 17:03:11




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 Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Moto Head, 12-05-2002 15:22:24  
M H, you could have either a magneto or a distributor. The Wico X mag & the Wico XD distributor look about the same. The mag is self contained & generates it's own power & the distributor needs external power to operate. ~One way to tell the difference is to see if the engine will still run with the wire going to it disconnected, if it will, you have a mag, & if it won't you have a distributor. Another way is to see if the wire that attaches to it has power when the ignition switch is turned on [if so you have a distributor]. One other way is to look where the wire attaches & see if it has a resistor plate held on with 2 screws.
~If it turns out to be that Wico distributor it won't be easy to wire. The Wico distributor already uses an internal resistor & if it is run at higher than 8-9 volts the resistor will burn up. If you try to eliminate that internal resistor the coil will probably not last long. You can try adding an external [ballast resistor] but they are designed for higher coil draw than the Wico so you won't really know if the voltage you end up with will be safe. If you go the ballast resistor route monitor the voltage at the distributor power post & if it goes higher than 8 for long you will have to increase the series resistance or add a little more load [resistor to ground on the distributor power post]. Probably to do it correctly you should try to find a Wico internal resistor for a Wico distributor used on a 12 volt tractor like the "A". Those Wico internal resistors are expensive & frail so that should be taken into account. ~If I were making that conversion I would go to Radio Shack or other electronics store & buy a little solid state DC power regulator that runs at 12-14 DC volts & outputs a constant 6-7 DC volts [probably should handle 5-8 amps]. Those things are cheap & do an excellent job of regulating output voltage with a varying input supply & changing current load. One of the problems with using a ballast resistor is the low coil voltage to the coil during cranking due to all the series resistance to control the 13-14 volts charging voltage when the generator is at max output. You end up with low coil voltage during cranking & high voltage during running [just the opposite of what you want]. With a solid state regulator it should be pretty constant all the time.
~I can't give you a part number or type on that solid state regulator but bet one of our resident Ham Radio or electronics buffs can.

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Moto Head

12-06-2002 16:12:29




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 Re: Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Clooney, 12-05-2002 17:03:11  
Back when I used to work on cars They had these ballast resistors (12-6 volts I beleive). It had a ceramic case with two male spade connectors on it, I beleive they were used for GM's HEI Ignition systems on 75 and later cars. I am going to try to find one, wire it in, and check the voltage at the end, and see what I come up with.

Thanks for everyones input, MH



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Clooney

12-06-2002 16:38:21




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 Re: Re: Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Moto Head, 12-06-2002 16:12:29  
MH, actually the one you want is from a Chrysler product. Most auto parts stores have a generic ballast resistor that is about what you need. GM used a resistor wire on their point equipped cars & trucks & didn't use any resistance on the HEI equipped ones.
~If after you install a ballast resistor, the voltage is too high [there is a chance of that because the internal coil & internal resistor is a higher resistance than a standard external coil] you can try adding a 3-5 watt 10 ohm resistor between the distributor power post & ground to add distributor side load to the ballast resistor. If that is not enough add a second in parallel or if the voltage is too low use them in series. It will be easier to add some load to the distributor power post than increase the ballast resistance. What you want is between 7 & 8 volts at that post with the engine running at fast idle & 5 or more during cranking.

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Moto Head

12-06-2002 17:19:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Clooney, 12-06-2002 16:38:21  
Do I have to have the ballast resister all wired in and everything working to check the resultant voltage on the resistor?, or can I bench test it with a batt, some leads, and a Volt/Ohm meter?

The reason I am asking is I have a couple of those
what I beleive to be resitors lying around, and when I check them with my meter, I have 12v in and 12v out...

Do they have to have a load on them to drop voltage?

Thanks in advance, MH

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Clooney

12-06-2002 17:37:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Moto Head, 12-06-2002 17:19:16  
MH, you will need the ballast resistor installed in the system. A ballast resistor needs a load to drop the output voltage [it's a series resistor]. Testing the distributor side voltage with the points open won't give a true voltage reading either & will only show the voltage drop caused by the voltmeter impedance which will be very small at best. The best way is to measure the distributor post voltage with the tractor running at fast idle so the system voltage is up around 13.5-14 volts.

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Moto Head

12-07-2002 17:33:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Clooney, 12-06-2002 17:37:36  
Mr. Clooney,

I went to Radio Shack, and all I could find was a 10 watt 10 ohm resitor. That was the closest thing they had to a (3-5watt 10 ohm) so I tried it. I put in a ballast resistor 12v to 6v then put the 10w/10ohlm between it and the distributor. I have 5 volts at the dist, and the engine won't start or run. I need a few more volts.

Are the 10 watts to high?, or the 10 ohlms to high? Just point me in the right direction.

Thanks in advance for your timely help...MH

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F-I-T...regulators

12-06-2002 07:39:13




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 Re: Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Clooney, 12-05-2002 17:03:11  
Clooney:

A really nice style of regulators I have used before is the LM 309 K, in the metal (TO3) can. It looks like a large power transistor, and is spec'd to take an input from 10V-35V, and give out a constant 5 V. They use them to power TTL logic circuits that require 5 V constant. Afraid that even with heatsinking, you could only count on about 1-2 amps capacity each, but you could parallel them onto a piece of PC stock, and tuck it under the hood (I don't think you'd ever see them up there. I was thinking at one time of using two to three to feed those sensitive pony coils. Someone else might know of another part number that has different output voltage, but if you can get by with 5 V, this model works really well.

Frank-in-Tallahassee
70D // 855

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Moto Head

12-05-2002 19:07:04




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 Re: Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Clooney, 12-05-2002 17:03:11  
I

It's a Wico distributer. I'm getting 12 volts at the dist wire with the ignition switched on. So I guess I'll try a ballast resistor first. If that doesn't work I'll go back and find a High cca 6 volt batt and go all original.

Thanks



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Clooney

12-05-2002 19:18:00




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 Re: Re: Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Moto Head, 12-05-2002 19:07:04  
M H, If you fry the internal coil or resistor let me know & I will talk you through installing an external [conventional] ignition coil on that XD. If requires some drilling & doesn't look exactly production but is a good way to get a decent ignition system from one of those Wico distributors...



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John T

12-05-2002 19:02:57




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 Re: Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Clooney, 12-05-2002 17:03:11  
I looked at a few catalog sources for regulators and all they had were 1 to 3 amps max. Im sure they can be purchased at higher amperage but the cost seems way too much for what hes tryign to do. To be on the safe side, it should handle 6 amps or so, at a stock 6 volt with an internal DC coil resistance of around 1.7 thats 3.5, amps so 6 ought to do it. John T PS Hes probably just got a mag anyway lol The common cheaper garden variety ignitions are merely current switches, while more expensive exotic units are more of higher voltage pulse providers which more like fire the coil, but I suspect what he has is merely an on off current switch since they can be purchased for $69. Gotta love electronics

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Steve - IN

12-05-2002 18:14:07




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 Re: Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Clooney, 12-05-2002 17:03:11  
Clooney,
I'm don't think you can find a "blister packed" part at Radio Shack that will handle much more than 2 or 3 amps - and they're usually designed to plug into a cig lighter outlets (the market being external power for CD players, etc in a car) Those are the cheap things for 20 to 30 dollars.

If it does need to handle that much amperage, and be regulated, you're into much more of a device. Short of building the entire thing from discrete parts with a nice big heat sink, you're into a 70 or more dollar device to handle that kind of load, from an industrial electronics house. At that rate, you could almost buy a rebuilt mag to replace it - if it is truly a Wico distributor. Or, go the dropping resistor route to the dist and hope for the best. For real Mickey Mouse, get a little 6 volt gel cell.

Not an easy conversion if it's a distributor, Moto Head. Good luck.

Steve

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Steve - IN

12-05-2002 16:54:51




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 Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Moto Head, 12-05-2002 15:22:24  
third party image

Moto Head,

If it looks something like this picture, it's a Wico magneto. You shouldn't have to worry about it with your 12 volt conversion. The starter motor should be OK as is also.

Steve



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Clooney

12-05-2002 17:01:49




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 Re: Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Steve - IN, 12-05-2002 16:54:51  
Steve, the Wico XD distributor looked almost exactly the same. It just had a power post instead of a grounding post & a little resistor plate on the front.



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Steve - IN

12-05-2002 17:37:53




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 Re: Re: Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Clooney, 12-05-2002 17:01:49  
Clooney,

True enough. Good point.

As it's a 51 B, it should have a Delco, as they as they started with Delco distributors after S/N 275531 - which looks a lot different that the picture. But I see the Wico XB or XD distributor was optional then and surely could have been stuck on over the years.

Best way is to ohm out or trace the wire to the "thing" to see if it ultimately runs to ground or the battery. And if it turns out to be a distributor, Moto Head, it would probably be easier to replace it with a mag.

Steve

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John T Nordhoff

12-05-2002 16:54:22




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 Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Moto Head, 12-05-2002 15:22:24  
Dear Moto, It may just be a Wico type X or C or other true magneto, in which case youre right, it generates its own power (like on hand crank non battery tractors) and requires no external battery connection. When you turn the tractor over very slowly, does that unit in question make a loud snapping sound every 180 of crank revolution and do the plugs fire then?? If so, its a magneto. On many of those, there is a single wire terminal out the side which is actually a KILL switch which kills the ignition when that lead is connected to ground (frame) through a kill type switch. Wico did make some battery powered coil ignitions which werent magnetos I believe, are there any numbers on the unit????? If you dont know or cant find any numbers to tell us, you can determine what you have (magneto or battery ignition) as follows: First, is there a switch connected by a wire to that side terminal??? (If theres nothing at all connected to that terminal and she still runs, or will run even if you disconnect that wire, its a magneto) If so, turn that switch to ON and place a test lamp (or voltmeter) at that terminal and see if it lights up but goes off when you turn the ignition switch off. If that happens, its a battery powered igntion system. More likely though, (if its a magneto) if you find that terminal gets grounded (use a continuity tester) when the ignition switch is OFF but an ungrounded open circuit when the ignition is turned ON, then its a simple true magneto and that terminal is just a kll switch. Okay, if its a magneto, no change is required for converting from 6 to 12 volts, because it doesnt use any battery power. The bulb changes and a 12 volt generator and regulator (or just a 12 volt regulator can still work but thats a whole other story) and repolarize the new system will get you going. Let us know what your number search or these tests reveal and post back with anymore questions. Ol John T Nordhoff

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Moto Head

12-05-2002 19:01:15




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 Re: Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to John T Nordhoff, 12-05-2002 16:54:22  
It has 12 volts going to it (the dist) when I turn on the ignition. It cranks starts and runs great now, I hate to see how a 6 volt batt works, cranking the engine over.
It came with the 12 volt batt in it. If I changed everything back to original, will the 6 volt lights be as bright as the 12 volt?



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Steve - IN

12-05-2002 21:59:36




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 Re: Re: Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Moto Head, 12-05-2002 19:01:15  
Moto Head,
If you're going to stay at 6, there are Optima 6V batteries rated at 800 CCA. I've got one. Works like a charm. Little pricey: look for sales or closeouts and you may find one in the 50 to 70 dollar range. They like big 0 or 00 AWG cables, but otherwise you'd think it was 12 volt system.

You can also get halogen bulbs to replace the old 6 volt bulbs from some classic car outfits. They draw around 12 amps per bulb - but sure are bright! They also give off that blue tint. If you're going have fun like that, maybe get 2 six volt batteries and run them in parallel as the old generator might not feel up to the task. Actually, at 10 mph you probably won't over drive the light from the old bulbs. With a good battery and generator you'll be fine.

Steve

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John T (Its a dist if it has 12 v to it)

12-05-2002 19:22:47




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 Re: Re: Re: 1951 B 6v to 12v Questions. in reply to Moto Head, 12-05-2002 19:01:15  
Moto, Yayyyyy since it has 12 volts to it when you turn on the ignition (and not a groundign kill switch), its a distributor. If you put only 6 volts on 12 volt rated lamps, they will be very dim. If you put 12 on a 6, they will burn real bright until they then burn out of course. I almost forget the original question now lol. OK, if that was originally a 6 volt Wico distributor and now youre runnign it at 12, youre gonna burn out the coil or its internal ballast or both and the points wont last as long. If its possible to determine its total DC resistance (The Wico unit) I would add a ballast resistor of the SAME resistance in series with that input terminal, such that 6 volts would drop across the ballast leaving 6 for the Wico distributor as it was designed for. The resistor would have to be a high power type around 25 to 30 watts to be safe and heat sinked. The original JD type ballast were wirewounds in a bakelite enclosure of around 1.3 to 1.7 ohms and 25 or so watts. Clooney talked of a solid state voltage regulator which would do fine if you can get enough current rated (I recommend at least 6) and the cost isnt too high. If it were mine and I knew it was designed for 6 volts, I would just add a similar ohms ballast in series and give it a try before spending alot on other things. The problem may be if you buy a ballast of too many ohms, it could reduce the Wicos currrent level lower than it needs to run its coil at, however. Let us all know what you decide to do. Ol John T in Indiana

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