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Electronic Ignition Conversion Kits (6 Volt) Clooney??

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AWB

11-29-2002 06:36:54




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I have a tractor that has a distributor-type ignition system with a 6 volt positive ground setup. Is there any advantage to installing an electronic conversion kit in the distributor? Does it change the external appearance anywhere on the tractor? Thanks, AWB.




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G Taylor

11-29-2002 15:25:29




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 Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion Kits (6 Volt) Clooney?? in reply to AWB, 11-29-2002 06:36:54  
No matter how the coil is switched there cannot be significant voltage drops at any current carrying joints/connections or through undersized conductors. The battery have to be the largest CCA and reserve capacity that will cram into the battery box. The charging system has to be set to 7.0V across the battery terminals when the engine is at fast idle or it won't fully/rapidly charge. A very common problem Many people find it easier to treat the symptons rather than cure the cause with a 12V conversion. Even an ok looking cable or connection has to be proven with a voltmeter while under load to ensure losses are insignificant. The battery resting voltage should be approx 6.3V and cranking voltage 5.0V or higher. A drop for example to just 3.4V from an undersized/old/cheap battery and/or a high resistance current path will reduce available power down to 50%.

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Clooney

11-29-2002 09:36:33




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 Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion Kits (6 Volt) Clooney?? in reply to AWB, 11-29-2002 06:36:54  
AWB, Well that depends! If you are going to keep it 6 volts you probably won't gain much & the few people that I personally know that have installed it on a 6 volt system have been somewhat disappointed. Other than a very slight coil collapse time difference there really isn't much gain. You still won't be able to run large plug gaps . The real advantage to an electronic conversion [there are different types] is that it allows the use of a much higher output coil due to the transistor switching instead of [points/condenser] & that allows the use of a higher current primary side coil. If you keep the same original 6 volt coil the gain is small & you really won't see much if any improvement.
~Now if you install it on a 12 volt system & use a good quality high output coil there is a gain to be seen, especially in a high compression or hard starting situations. ~If you are thinking of the change for starting reasons on a 6 volt system remember the usual cause of hard starting [assuming a good healthy engine] is low supply voltage to the 6 volt coil during cranking & an electronic system won't help that any. ~If the system you are considering comes with a higher output coil or with a better coil core or even an "E" core coil then you will likely see an improvement. If the system you are considering just uses your existing coil about all you will get is less point changes that is offset by the fact that if it fails down the road or in the field you will have to send away for parts to repair it.

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John T

11-29-2002 09:54:48




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 Re: Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion Kits (6 Volt) Clooney?? in reply to Clooney, 11-29-2002 09:36:33  
Hope you had a Happy Thanksgiving clooney, are you gonna make it to Gathering of the Green next year??? I would also use and recommend a high performance coil if I installed an electronic igntion, so when the transistor is conducting, it would be possible to store more energy (6 volts time whatever additional amps) and thereby impart more energy across the plugs then set wider gap for a longer fatter hotter higher energy spark woooo hooooo . Even with a stock coil, however, the improved switching of a transistor versus those bouncing, corroding, carboning up points, will provide a higher energy discharge across the plugs gap. The Dennys $69 price versus JD point and condensor approximately yearly isnt too far off the mark, but like Steve, isnt it neat to have an original JD 6 volt system in tip top shape that starts on the first few cranks rain or shine or cold. Hope to see you soon. Ol John T, your neighbor to the South.

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Clooney

11-29-2002 10:29:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion Kits (6 Volt) Clooney?? in reply to John T, 11-29-2002 09:54:48  
John, I'm going to try to make the Gathering of the Green next year but that time period is usually when we are setting up for our hot weather testing to get it in by the model cut off date.
~You are right about a slightly higher energy from a transistor switched coil but that is usually seen at higher RPM's. Back in the 60's when we were testing our production electronic ignitions for production release we didn't see much of anything below 3000 RPM's. The big gain was in using an "E" core coil as that would really send the KV higher with those .060" gap plugs we were using then for idle emission control . That then required thicker silicone covered plug wires & better wire routing away from low voltage wiring. One of the big unforeseen problems that showed up was the spark jumping to the wrong cap tower inside the smaller caps, especially when there was an electronic timing delay used for emission or converter warm up so the rotor wasn't completely lined up at firing time. That is why you see such large distributor caps on some early HEI distributors....

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John T

11-29-2002 11:18:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion Kits (6 Volt) Clooney?? in reply to Clooney, 11-29-2002 10:29:05  
If you mean the GM HEI ignitions of the eighties, I have used them alot on my own personal automotive and marine upgrades, because with that internal pickup plus switch all right there under the cap with no outside brain box required, all you need is that one 12 v #10 wire attached and youre off to the races. In non GM aplications where I cant drop in a GM HEI distributor, I run Ford type pick up coils inside (done it on marine and tractors) but use the Chrysler box on the outside for ease of wiring and hook up and Ive never had one fail yet. The junk yard people tell me many of the Ford brain boxes go bad, while hardly any of those old Chrysler units failed.

Using stock coils, even with an electronic switch, you still cant increase the primary current too much or you may overheat the coil. Its still impossible to get more energy discharge arced across that plug gap than the energy supplied and stored during the conduction cycle (i.e. more amps since voltage is fixed), but as we agree, the better switch still helps. Isnt electronics fun?? Catch u later John T PS If we get asked to do rountables at Gathering, Mark tries to pair me with an engine/tranny/clutch man and I field electrical stuff. You dont need no help, you can handle it all. Hope to se you there

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John T (Update)

11-29-2002 09:35:16




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 Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion Kits (6 Volt) Clooney?? in reply to AWB, 11-29-2002 06:36:54  
AWB, Dennys Carb Shop www.dennyscarcshop. com advertises them for $69, genesee electronics has an info web site, see [email protected]. You asked if the differences were noticeable, well, these units have a small double wire leading out of the distributor as opposed to that single wire in the stock application. It looks like cost effectiveness versus the points and condensor is your only factor to consider, because they do provide a hotter higher energy spark across a plug gap you can probably widen and you will improve starting and performance. Let us all know what you go with. Ol John T

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Steve - IN

11-29-2002 08:42:19




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 Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion Kits (6 Volt) Clooney?? in reply to AWB, 11-29-2002 06:36:54  
AWB,
The advantage is a bigger, fatter spark and lower maintenance costs. The downside is initial cost. The systems themselves are fairly well hidden.

If your 6V system starts and runs well now, your breakeven point is probably 6 to 7 years hence on a 2 cylinder with an annual change of points, condensor and plugs. If you go the typical route and go to 12VDC neg ground, the cross over point is probably 15 to 17 years hence.

Call me a penurious curmudgeon, but I get a kick out of being able to get my 6V pos ground tractor to start in one or two crankovers and run well. Seems to me that 12V systems were the result of copper prices rising higher and faster than lead and acid prices; and HEI is a requisite of lean burn pollution engines.

Having said all that, there was just a JD IVT (infinitely variable transmission) ad on the radio. I can see real advantages in that, but still probably won't shell out 60 to 100 K for a new tractor.

Steve

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John T

11-29-2002 07:44:03




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 Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion Kits (6 Volt) Clooney?? in reply to AWB, 11-29-2002 06:36:54  
Hi again AWB, I believe Gennesee Products and other distributors have both 6 and 12 volt pos and neg grnd ignitions available. The change inside the distributor itself can not be seen, because it merely replaces the points and condensor with a magnetic pickup triggering unit which causes firing of the coil when a magnet passes a pickup coil, versus the mechanical contact points closing and opening as a coil current switch. As far as an advantage, the system provides alot more spark energy (volts times amps) across a potentially wider plug gap to better ignite the fuel charge, because its potentially a hotter, fatter, more surface area arc discharge. Its heat and the release of electrical energy across that plug gap (volts times amps) which ignites the fuel, and an electronic ignition provides more of everything. That improves starting and efficiency. The problem with mechanical points is that they for one corrode, pit, burn and oxidize (all which develop energy robbing resistance), plus are a much slower coil current switching device which bounces as opposed to an electronic unit which turns a solid state device on and off very rapidly with no point bounce or ringing or degradation. I have seen them from $89 to $129, and if you consider the cost of points plus the benefits of an electonuic unit, I believe they are quite feasible. The only drawback I can see is if you really give a #@#$*( about what the so called Correct Police think lol but I figure its your tractor and if you want to take advantage of superior technology, its nobodys business but yours. Best Wishes and hope this provides some insight. let us know what you decide to do. Ol John T Nordhoff in Indiana

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John

11-29-2002 23:12:16




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 Re: Re: Electronic Ignition Conversion Kits (6 Volt) Clooney?? in reply to John T, 11-29-2002 07:44:03  
one more advantage to mention---that the dwell and timing will never change because of the rubbing block on the points wearing down during normal operation.



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