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Clooney or John T. -- Polarize??

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Wayne in Tn.

11-21-2002 06:53:19




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Just got my 420 Lp back together and running. Not charging. It is on the original 6v system with a new wiring harness from Agri. Services. Want to polarize, but you know where the regulator is mounted and am fearful about sparks around the LP. I know that you spark a wire from Gen. to Batt. Is the bottom post on the regulator the Gen? Mine is marked A. and goes to the A post on the generator. Question is: can I spark a hot wire to the A terminal on the generator? Will this do the job without pulling the dash to get to the regulator? Do you do this with the engine running? Thanks for any info.

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John T

11-21-2002 07:44:23




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 Re: Clooney or John T. -- Polarize?? in reply to Wayne in Tn., 11-21-2002 06:53:19  
Wayne, after you polarize the old girl like the clooney man told you (Im not sure yet polarized is all it needs??) if she still dont gen, then try to ground the field (smaller lead out generator marked F) to case ground and see if she then gens. If she does then but not otherwise, you mave have a VR or miswiring problem. Be sure the generator has a good connection to frame and the VR has its own good grounding. Also, she still cant charge the battery unless the Bat terminal out the VR (then maybe through the ammeter if it has one)is actually getting to the batterys ungrounded terminal, often via the starter or direct to the battery itself. Let us know and good luck, Ol John T

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Wayne in Tn.

11-21-2002 14:22:40




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 Re: Re: Clooney or John T. -- Polarize?? in reply to John T, 11-21-2002 07:44:23  
I'm bout to go nuts with this thing. Here's what I have:
New wiring harness from Agri. Services

Generator brushes new and taken to Gen. shop to be checked, it is putting out 30 amps.

New voltage regulator. Polarized it.

New 8 volt battery-is that the problem?

Painstakingly installed new harness.

First tried it with old VR the amp gage would show a discharge with lights or ignition on, also lp solenoid. But when running the gage showed a slight discharge. Could not get it to move even with throttle wide open. ---Then went and got a new VR. Same thing, took the generator to a shop to be checked, he said it was fine and was putting out 30 amps. ---So --put the generator back on and re-polarized the VR. Cranked up-and gage went to showing about 15 amps dis-charge, then killed the engine and she went out of sight toward discharge, ran and disconnected battery cable and had a BIG spark. Let it sit for a while then touched the Battery cable back and no short now?? I am going to get out the diagram and go back over all the wiring harness, also I suspect the (NEW) voltage regulator may have been sold before - for someone to try. Also could the ignition switch be bad? It works fine on the ign.and lights.

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Wayne

11-22-2002 06:28:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Clooney or John T. -- Polarize?? in reply to Wayne in Tn., 11-21-2002 14:22:40  
You answered your own question in this post. Bench testing the gen put out 30 amps, but I'd bet a dollar to a donut, that it is somewhere around 7-7 1/2 volts!!! To charge an 8 volt batt needs 9-9 1/2 volts, have to put in more than taking out to build up reserve.
Think of a bucket of water. If it leaks out at 1 quart a minute & you add 1 pint a minute, soon it will be empty. If it leaks a quart a minute & you add a gallon a minute, it will soon run over. Try to adjust reg to put out around 9 volts.
Or go back to 6 volt batt.
Maybe this will help
Willie

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John T (R we havin fun yet??)

11-21-2002 16:56:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Clooney or John T. -- Polarize?? in reply to Wayne in Tn., 11-21-2002 14:22:40  
Wow, this is getting to be an electricians nightmare. I was gone a bit and it looks like you 2 guys are really going after it. The clooney man has you going pretty well I see, so heres my 2 cents worth. First, the fact that the generator shop checks out the gen and says she puts out 30 amps aint got nuttin to do with what I think is a VR problem now. The gen can work fine, but unless the cutout in the VR and its field regulating circuit match that darn infernal 8 volt battery youre using (which it wont till its adjusted) the combo package is gonna drive you bonkers. I forgot above, are you running at pos or neg grnd now and is the ammeter wired right??? If you have the tractor setting and turn on the lights or ignition it SHOULD SHOW DISCHARGE. If not it needs to be reversed. However, since you said it goes to discharge when you turn tractor off, sounds like its already in correct. That discharge at shut off is due to the VR's internal cutout relay sticking closed (points are burned and carboned)and the battery is reverse discharging through the generator. That relays supposed to close when the gens output exceeds the batterys voltage (to charge it) BUT THEN open when the tractor is shut off and the voltage out the generator drops. Like we both told you earlier, if you ground teh Field terminal out of teh generator she should charge if the gen is putting out and the bat and arm/gen terminals are connected via that internal cut out relay. HOWEVER, if you run an 8 volt battery and didnt adust the VR, its not going to rise high enough to close that cutout relay and show a battery charge. BOTTOM LINE, either take both the gen and VR to a good old fashioned gen shop and have them check and set it up or buy a good heavy duty 6 volt battery and use 00 Gauge starter and ground cables and go back to correct and original is my advice. Let us both know and Good luck my friend. Ol John T Nordhoff

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Wayne in Tn.

11-21-2002 17:12:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Clooney or John T. -- Polarize?? in reply to John T (R we havin fun yet??), 11-21-2002 16:56:27  
John T. I have double checked the wires to the amp gage and they are correct. Also I got both battery cables from Agri. Services, the ground is the braided strap and the hot is 00. I am beginning to think that #&$$**## 8 Volt battery is causing all this, I will put a 6 volt in and start over. To begin with, I talked to a few locals and the man at the parts store and they all said ( yes the 8 volt will work fine ) so I went with it. Oh, yes, I am trying to keep this one all original, with the Pos. ground. This is just one example as to why I like to change over to 12v neg. ground for tractors I am going to use. I have never been able to keep a VR working or a 6 volt battery that is not dead. Ha...

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Clooney

11-21-2002 15:08:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Clooney or John T. -- Polarize?? in reply to Wayne in Tn., 11-21-2002 14:22:40  
Wayne, first, with an 8 volt battery you will have to set the regulator field control up to 9-9.2 volts. If your regulator is now set to below 8 volts [it's probably set at around 7.9v now] it won't ever show a charge. Ground the field post on the generator & see if it charges, if so your problem is probably the regulator.
~If grounding the field post shows no improvement make sure the [BAT] wire at the regulator has battery power in it. One quick way to test the cut-out relay & the wire from the batter/starter/ammeter/cut-out/generator [the whole cut-out side of the system] is to remove the [A] post wire on the generator & hook your battery charger [proper polarity] to the removed [A] wire, then try the 6 volt setting on your charger, that might not close the cut-out depending on the type of cut-out, then try the 12 volt setting, that should close the cut-out & show a charge on the tractor ammeter. If that tests out ok then your problem is generator [you say that is good] or regulator [if grounding the [F] post on the generator makes it charge then your problem is in the regulator field control, field control voltage setting , regulator ground, or wire between the [F] post on the generator & the [F] terminal on the regulator. If grounding the [F] post doesn't show a charge & your battery charger test shows a charge on 12 volt setting, then you have generator problems or generator ground problems. If the test shows a big dis-charge you have the ammeter wired backwards.
~Do some of the above tests & post back with your findings & John or Clooney will give you more confusing data.
~You will probably need to at least set your field control to 9-9.2 volts & if you have a combination current/voltage field control [most are now] in the regulator it isn't that easy. If you have to go there let John on me know & we will give you the sort of complex setting procedure.
~There isn't a chance you bought a negative ground ONLY regulator is there? If so the cut-out will probably only work for discharge.....

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Wayne in Tn.

11-21-2002 15:22:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Clooney or John T. -- Polarize?? in reply to Clooney, 11-21-2002 15:08:16  
Thanks for all the help, I will go back over all the the things you said, I don't know if I bought a Neg. ground only regulator or not. The parts store said it was a replacement for the 420. It looks the same. When you mention (cut-out) are you referring to the internal parts of the VR? Would it be less complicated to just buy a 6v battery? I think it will start good on one, because I just open the vapor valve, turn the ign. on, pull the starter button and she fires right up.

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Clooney

11-21-2002 15:45:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Clooney or John T. -- Polarize?? in reply to Wayne in Tn., 11-21-2002 15:22:37  
Wayne, yes the cut-out is internal to the VR.
~Obviously a 6 volt battery would be easier but that 6 volt coil running at 9+ volts will give you a spark to behold. Something most 420's never see without going to 12 volts.
~If you suspect the 8v battery / VR field setting is the problem, try a 6v battery from one of your other 420's..... .



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Wayne in Tn.

11-21-2002 16:56:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Clooney or John T. -- Polarize?? in reply to Clooney, 11-21-2002 15:45:47  
Yes, I will try a 6v battery, the voltage to the coil may be why she starts so quick, It may be a few days before I get to go through everything, but will post back, on any developments, thanks much...



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Clooney

11-21-2002 17:08:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Clooney or John T. -- Polarize?? in reply to Wayne in Tn., 11-21-2002 16:56:05  
Wayne, if you want to use that 8 volt battery, [you'll love it in the cold of winter] install a 6 volt battery to get the charging system working then let us know [we'll have to type a novel] & We'll send you the regulator adjusting procedure. It isn't rocket science but will test your patience....



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Clooney

11-21-2002 07:20:52




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 Re: Clooney or John T. -- Polarize?? in reply to Wayne in Tn., 11-21-2002 06:53:19  
Wayne, don't worry about the regulator position, just don't do it there.
~With a well charged battery installed all you have to do is run a hot wire from the starter big battery post & momentarily touch it to the generator [A] post, (bigger of the two) on the generator, if you see a spark you're done, if no spark, ground the [F] post on the generator & try again....



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Thanks for the Quick reply!!!! Nt

11-21-2002 07:22:50




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 Re: Re: Clooney or John T. -- Polarize?? in reply to Clooney, 11-21-2002 07:20:52  
NT



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