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Flywheel Bolt Failure

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Clooney

11-19-2002 15:27:05




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Just though I would post a little problem I found on a friends 730D.
~He has been complaining that his flywheel keeps loosening up after a hard use & he has to keep tightening the bolts.
~I finally got around to looking at it today & found the bolts have stretched [probably from overtightening on one or more occasion], they are both about 3/16" longer than they were from production. ~You can see the thread stretch & necking down of the bolt just behind where the nut was. ~Look those flywheel bolts over very carefully when you have them out or if they are/were loose.

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Tad

11-20-2002 10:57:55




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 Re: Flywheel Bolt Failure in reply to Clooney, 11-19-2002 15:27:05  
I have also seen this kind of damage on fasteners due to over-torqueing - usually due to installing the wrong strength of bolt.

On the subject of fasteners, is there any downside (other than cost) to using stainless steel bolts during a restoration?



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F-I-T

11-20-2002 05:46:45




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 Re: Flywheel Bolt Failure in reply to Clooney, 11-19-2002 15:27:05  
JD:

Back in like '58, my dad's good friend, a mechanic at the local JD dealer came over one night to help find the origins of a knock in our '48 "A". After he listened to it, he removed the flywheel bolts and showed Dad that the old ones were longer. He said that he always replaced flywheel bolts after about two seasons, or three or four good tightenings. Then he said that those "new"diesels were worse, and the guys typically replaced those bolts every time they were out. I remember that like it was yesterday, and I've always done that.

I made a lot of hitch pins that way over the years, but I thought it was cheap insurance.

Frank-in-Tallahassee
70D // 855

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RL A

11-20-2002 09:39:48




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 Re: Re: Flywheel Bolt Failure in reply to F-I-T, 11-20-2002 05:46:45  
Along with that flywheel bolts, ran into head studs doing the same thing. High torque bolts & studs need to be check for this kind of failure.

Replacing these bolts with something from a bolt specialty isn't the answer either. Had 60 with a fly wheel knock. I parked that flywheel & bought another. A friend needed one for an A cyclone. I told him it had problems & gave it to him. He bought grade 8 fine thread bolts & installed it. Long pipe & kept tighting down until knock went away. Thought he had it fixed? About 6 months later the flywheel shatterd while running! He lived to tell the story! But needed many more parts. RLA

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Tractorboy

11-19-2002 18:10:03




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 Re: Flywheel Bolt Failure in reply to Clooney, 11-19-2002 15:27:05  
Well guys I won't argue but a grade 8 bolt may not always be the answer because it wont flex . It will hold the torque but at the max it will snap. My 2 cents worth.



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John T

11-19-2002 16:40:44




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 Re: Flywheel Bolt Failure in reply to Clooney, 11-19-2002 15:27:05  
Hey Clooney, am I correct in assuming you took that pic with a digital camera??? Im looking for one, but wonder if the cheaper 2.1 megapixel ones will suffice if you want to take then print out 8 x 10 color glossys on photo paper with a high quality 6 color ink jet printer??? My engineering intuition tells me a 2.1 megapixel may do for smaller black/white pics, but for bigger color pics, a 4 megapixel is the way to go. Yes, I have seen bolts that look like that and also use alot of grade 8 material and anti sieze lube in certain locations during a restoration. Take care, Ol John T

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Steve - IN

11-19-2002 19:39:10




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 Re: Re: Flywheel Bolt Failure in reply to John T, 11-19-2002 16:40:44  
John T,

Even garden variety ASA 400 print film will give you a far better continuous tone print for an 8x10. The current top line digital cameras are better suited for snapshots in my view.

You can always digitize after the fact, as current flatbed scanners are fairly good, and fairly cheap. I bought an HP 1200 dpi scanner around 10 years ago for mega bucks. Now the same capability is available for less than a tenth of the price.

Of the digital cameras we have around, our favorite is a Panasonic 1.3 with 1.44 or 120mb super disk. Reason is, no messing with memory modules or USB umbicals - just pop floppies in and out. So easy, it makes up for its clunky size.

Even the low res clunker will give you pics that are 150 to 300K. So it's good to have some photo editing software -- your friends with dial up access will thank you if you've shrunk a file down to 60 or 80K through editing.

As with all electronics, don't buy it now; the price will be going down. With even Wally World warning Wall Street about bleak Christmas sales - they'll be much cheaper Dec. 26, if not sooner.

Steve

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Clooney

11-19-2002 17:55:16




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 Re: Re: Flywheel Bolt Failure in reply to John T, 11-19-2002 16:40:44  
John, yes, I use a digital camera a lot to take disassembly photos & document tractor restorations at tractor shows & just general photo work. I still use my Nikon 35 mm with good lenses for landscapes & long range work.
~A 2.1 mega pixel camera will be more than you need for small color photos, E-mailing pictures & posting pictures. It will be a bit limited for professional 8 X 10 color work though.
~Before you use the 8 X 10 home photo printing as a guideline for camera purchase remember that most home printing is still using ink, & ink [even on good paper] tends to spread as it hits the paper so 8 X 10 sharp resolution isn't nearly as good as pro laser or 3 color light exposed prints. It does do a nice job on portraits due to the softer look.
~Due to the high cost of ink [pictures use a lot of ink] & the high cost of photo grade paper I have found it much cheaper to throw the digital images on a disk & take them to the local Meijers store for printing. It's cheaper & they use better [real photo paper].
~I have had a digital camera of some kind for over 3 years now & wouldn't be without it.
~Before making a decision on what type, size, cost, & functions you need in a digital camera define exactly what you want & expect from the camera, & what it's primary job will be. From my experience an in camera [digital] zoom is useless. It is a selling feature but is virtually useless, it won't do anything you can't do on a computer when done. On the other hand an optical zoom is well worth the money as it adds new pixels & doesn't just double what is already there.
~You should also consider the intended use of the camera, the newer mega wonders are getting pretty big & a big camera is useless if it is too big to carry with you all the time. Mine isn't a big camera with a lot of functions but is about pocket size so I always have it with me even at shows, parades, in the car & at tractor scrap yards, I usually have it handy at most events, something I didn't do with my Nikon because of it's size & weight.
~In my estimation a digital camera isn't a replacement for a good 35 mm but is a handy tool for special use & if sized right will always be handy....

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zane

11-19-2002 16:05:27




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 Re: Flywheel Bolt Failure in reply to Clooney, 11-19-2002 15:27:05  
Thanks, Clooney. A picture's worth a thousand words. I'm curious though...Do you suppose this bolt was inferior to start with? Is this something you run into fairly often? Even with OEM?



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Clooney

11-19-2002 16:12:03




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 Re: Re: Flywheel Bolt Failure in reply to zane, 11-19-2002 16:05:27  
Zane, I don't think the bolt was defective, [they're pretty soft to begin with] & they were both about the same amount of stretch. ~I don't see it a lot, but have found a few over the years with stretched bolts [probably from a heavy hand on a long pipe]
~I usually just install grade 8 bolts as replacments [it takes a lot longer pipe to stretch them]..



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G Taylor

11-19-2002 16:54:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Flywheel Bolt Failure in reply to Clooney, 11-19-2002 16:12:03  
Yet another example of why a task should be undertaken with the proper equipment,materials and knowledge. A 3/4 grade 2 bolt (without any lines on the head) is made of 60,000 to 74,000 psi tensile steel. Max torque 175lbs on clean dry threads.140 ft lbs oiled. A grade 5 bolt (three lines)is made of 105,000 to 120,000 psi tensile with a max torque of 280 ft lbs dry/225 ftlbs oiled . A grade 8 bolt is made of 150,000 psi tensile steel and max torques are 310ft lb lubed and 400ft lb dry. A 200lb farmer jumping on a three foot long cheater bar is going to loosen the flywheel clamping force with each hop past the max torque ratings by over stretching the "spring tensioner"(bolt). A bolt/stud is a tension fastener only differnt from a coil spring due to it's shape. We all know a coil spring can be overstretched and ruined. Why we still overtorque bolts untill a total failure occurs is a wonder??? Too much = less . Good illustration there Clooney, most people refuse to even consider believing something new untill they see it.

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