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49G just gets harder and harder to start

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Ol Mark in In.

11-18-2002 16:09:07




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Hi gang, it has been awhile since i've posted on YT. but now since road construction is winding down its time to think about playing with my toys and my 49G is the first one on the list to get some attention, that is why I keep ytmag. on my favorites because I know i can rely on " the gang " for some darn good advice. Brief history of the G still set up for "all fuel " .045 pistons, hot manifold, head has been done, mag has been rebuilt, carb has been rebuilt This tractor has never started right up like the gas tractors do but it just seems like each month it gets harder to build a fire in her. I have a cigar box full of spark plugs I've tried, some of them probably only have a hour of service. Tried adjusting the carb. hundreds of times but one thing I havn't tried is timing by a light. The ole girl will eventuality light up and come to life, sounds and runs like a all fueler should, what a relaxing sound after a long day at the plant. ok guys throw me you thoughts and ideas and questions when you get a chance and I bet " we " can this baby to start in reasonable fashion.
Thanks in advance Mark

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Stan

11-20-2002 06:34:59




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 Re: 49G just gets harder and harder to start in reply to Ol Mark in In., 11-18-2002 16:09:07  
Mark,

I see you are from Indiana. Where abouts? I live just up the road from K&K.



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Ol mark

11-18-2002 18:55:11




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 Re: 49G just gets harder and harder to start in reply to Ol Mark in In., 11-18-2002 16:09:07  
Thanks John and Clooney for your responses, I had a feeling I would hear from you two first. To answer some of your question, the g has a wico x mag which was just completely gone through by K&K about a year ago,spark plug wires are wire, electric start, I have not tried 388 plugs. One more thing I want to tell you is the starting procedure I have the best luck with - half throttle full choke pet cocks open start cranking as soon as I hear a little fire I open the choke continue cranking sometimes for a minute or more, if shes going to start it will be in this two minute window otherwise I'am wasting my time gas and battery. One more quick thought before I sign off. I did a little experiment on the G after it has ran and up to temp. I still needed to use the choke to restart it but there is always plenty of gas shooting out of the pet cocks. p.s. I checked compression when I first brought it home 5 or 6 yrs. ago I'am thinking it was around 55, does that sound about right? Mark in Terre Haute

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Steve - IN

11-18-2002 20:56:07




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 Re: Re: 49G just gets harder and harder to start in reply to Ol mark, 11-18-2002 18:55:11  
Mark,

It's that Hulman/George family there in Vigo county, they suck all the sparks out of the air. Kind of like the hum in Kokomo.

Seriously - fuel, fire and compression are what you need to start - was what an engine builder I knew from Haubstadt,IN used to say. Sounds like many bases have been covered. Haven't seen a mention of an intake leak as a possibility... but from what you say about lots of gas and the choke after it's warm; there's also a chance those guys in Shelby county, or somewhere after their work is limiting the amount of spark you're getting.

Good luck with it from Hamilton county. I'm not going to say Ol, but I do wish the AARP would stop sending mail.

Steve

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Clooney

11-18-2002 20:05:16




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 Re: Re: 49G just gets harder and harder to start in reply to Ol mark, 11-18-2002 18:55:11  
Mark, that starting procedure has all the ear marks of low compression or poor spark, it doesn't sound like fuel. [unless you have stale fuel in it]
~The 55 lbs cranking is low but good. You really should re-check the cold cranking compression to see if it is still close. If it is low during cranking you might try some 2-cycle oil in the gas to see if that will help the rings seal.
~If the cold compression is above 50 then look at the mag, pay special attention to oxidized points [sometimes long cranking will electrically wash the points]. It wouldn't hurt to look in the mag to see if it is rusty inside, if it is, clean the rust from the coil core & laminations. Those X mags are pretty hardy but internal rust will really hurt the starting spark.
~Try only opening the petcocks about 1/2 way. I have an old hand start "A" that will take 20+ flywheel turns when cold but if the petcocks are only opened a little [it's hard to turn that way] it will start on the 2nd time over.
~Try the .040" plug gap.
~Run it out of fuel to stop it [don't ever choke it to stop] ~If it still won't start, crank it with no choke & little throttle to start then add choke as it turns over.
~One thing I have used to track poor starting spark is to take some old solid core plug wires & cut them into 2 pieces then strip the insulation back about 1/4" from the cut ends & slide a 2" piece of tight fitting clear plastic hose over the wire ends & slide the ends to within 1/8" of each other. Then install & crank the tractor in the dark. You can watch the spark in you newly created [spark gap] to see if it is blue & continuous during the cranking process. If so the mag is probably good to go.

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John T

11-18-2002 19:16:35




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 Re: Re: 49G just gets harder and harder to start in reply to Ol mark, 11-18-2002 18:55:11  
Mark, Wow, such long extended cranking periods ARE JUST TOTALLY WRONG. What a load on your batteries and cranking motor!!!!! I will be anxious to hear clooneys comment after this new info, but Im thinking maybe from what you say, (if the mag and trip spring assembly is okay??) its not an ignition problem, but maybe youre not gettign sufficient gas at start up. When shes warm it shouldnt need any choke. I would re check to see if pulling the choke rod actually closes the choke butterfly, try the needles each a little richer, and maybe not open the petcocks so much. If anywhere near right and in tune with a good spark and good compression, she should fire on the first couple cylinders. One last ignition comment though, a weak spring in the mag can cause a very weak spark during cranking, so if she runs fine once shes started, then you might take a look at how strong the mag spring is and how loud and sharp she snaps over as I described in my earlier post. If its not a mag spring problem (try the mag test I described earlier at slow crank and trip over conditions), then definitely try my fuel related suggestions. Ol John T, your neighbor to the South.

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Ol John T in Indiana

11-18-2002 17:03:20




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 Re: 49G just gets harder and harder to start in reply to Ol Mark in In., 11-18-2002 16:09:07  
Hi neighbor Ol Mark, well yours is a wide open question for sure, and if you read Wayne's post immediately below, you will get my take on plugs. You say you have a bunch of plugs?? Are they all flat black sooty looking??? Or wet deep black looking??? And are they fouling out after only a short period of time?? If so, try a heat range or 2 hotter. I dont think you need a timing light so much, because if its too far advanced, the old girl will crank over hard near TDC and bump the starter trying to kick back when cranking. If shes too slow, it will pop loudly at no load idle like youre hooked to a plow or something. Anyway, you can try and adjust the timing to see if it helps, and rememebr the advance on the back side of the mag is what sets your running advance (around 20 to 25 degrees) timing as opposed to the start up timing (less than 250 RPM) when the mag spring is winding up and tripping over. Of course, you then dynamically set it by rotating the mag CCW to advance and CW to retard. Finally regardign ignition, be sure the points are clean and free of pits, burning, or carbon build ups and gapped around 0.015 to 0.017 or so. The cap and rotor need to be clean and free of carbon tracks and I assume you have real wire wires, not auto carbon suppressor types?? If you remove the plugs and have the plug wires 1/8 or less from the frame and crank her over, the spark should be a deep fat blue and not a skinny light yellow wimpy color. If not, test back directly to the mags coil output (cap removed) with a wire between it (the coils button output which goes against the litle spring) and case 1/8 or less away. If the spark is good and blue there, but not out the plug wires as described above, the problem may be in the cap and/or rotor and/or wires. As far as a fuel problem, check and see if when you choke it, the choke butterfly is ACTUALLY CLOSING properly (not just that the rod is pulled) and you may want to check for restrictions in the air cleaner also. Try opening the idle needle an extra 1/4 turn. If you check for full choke closure and the condition of your points and their gap and the quality of spark and post back, maybe we can determine if its a fuel or ignition problem and proceed from there. I always reccomend fresh plugs (still do), but it sounds like you are fouling them too quickly, which may be an ignition problem (weak mag due to points or condensor or coil etc) or an excess unburned fuel problem causing it, like the load needle is too rich or choke not opening or air restricted etc. At fast throttle, is the stack burnign clean, or do you see black smoke?? If so, lean the power needle and remove the air cleaner and check the choke butterfly. Other hard startign woes can be due to vacuum leaks (makes her too lean) in the carb (was the throttle shaft rebushed at rebuild??) or other places. Sorry so many questions, but their answers will help us help you. Im in Bloomington, Indiana, where are you?? Good Luck, Ol John T Nordhoff

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Clooney

11-18-2002 16:29:33




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 Re: 49G just gets harder and harder to start in reply to Ol Mark in In., 11-18-2002 16:09:07  
Mark, what type of mag do you have on it?
~Are you hand starting it or using a starter?
~In any case, new fuel is a must, a blue spark that will jump a 3/16"+ gap is a must, a choke that closes completely is a must, worn throttle shaft bushings can add air to the mixture at low [starting throttle settings], dry cylinder walls from sitting will lower compression during cranking.
~Make sure the ignition wires are solid core [ non TVRS] type & you are getting a good thick blue spark. ~Check the carb for all mentioned above.
~Do a cold compression test to see if you are cranking at low compression [the all-fuels don't have much to spare]
~Try opening the plug gap to .040" [I have found that helps starting]
~If using the compression relief cocks open them just enough to turn it over [don't let any more out than you have to]
~Try new regular gasoline [old gas looses it's light ends that are needed for starting]
~Try different throttle settings for starting [usually lower is better]
~Make sure your points aren't oxidized from sitting...

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