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JD 8520 performance.........

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G-MAN

10-08-2002 13:41:24

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I had a chance to dyno a new 8520 we have going out on demos this afternoon, and I thought some of you guys might be interested in what it did. Rated PTO horsepower for the 8520 is 255. The one I ran today turned just under 285 at 70 degrees ambient temp and probably around 50 percent humidity, so it runs pretty good. It had .7 hours on it when I started and I ran it for an hour and a half, during which time it picked up 10 horsepower. So I'm guessing that when it gets 200 hours or so on it, it will be pushing 300 horsepower or thereabouts. We have some early 8400s around that will make 300 or so on a cool, dry day, so we'll see what this 8520 has later on this fall. It's quite a machine, and I'm betting even the guys that aren't interested in all that "electronic garbage" would be impressed by the comfort, convenience and power of the new tractors. But, for $190,000, it had better be nice, lol.

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scottAR no payments

10-09-2002 19:18:15

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Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to G-MAN, 10-08-2002 13:41:24

I just couldn't wait to get on this site when I finally got home from work tonite because I knew there would be some good posts here. I hope none of you take offense to my comments about the new tractors on this antique tractor site. To me it is all in fun as I doubt that anyone will change their minds here. I agree the Versatile would be hard to row crop with and that is the reason JD made 4840s. I pull 12 row equipment with them and can barely get down the roads now. Can't understand the need for a 300 horsepower "row crop" tractor. I'm glad JD has finally made a good high horsepower engine because just a few years ago they were having to borrow the same Cummins that is in my "cobbled up pile of junk" so they would have an engine that would stay in the big tractors. Or do we know if it is a good engine yet? As for the arguement of Versatile versus Steiger, I would choose the Versatile simply because it is so much easier to repair. I can replace a clutch in two and a half hours by myself where the Steiger factory tractors require you to stand on your head thru the floorboard for two days. I don't know but one farmer around here that has bought a new tractor in the last three years. There are new tractors out but they are all leased. A good application for the expensive electrohydraulics and computer control, that I see, is with the dirt movers as they are getting paid by the cubic yard whereas I'm getting paid by the bushel.

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G-MAN

10-10-2002 07:41:43

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Re: Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to scottAR no payments, 10-09-2002 19:18:15

Scott, I can tell you that there definitely is a market for 300 hp row-crop tractors. 12 row equipment is the norm around here, and all the guys use mounted planters, not pull-types. We also have customers running 16-row stack-fold mounted planters, and that is all an 8400 or 8410 wants on the hitch, even with lift-assist wheels. Perhaps you've also seen the 32-row planter that JD is co-introducing. It would seem to me that that would be more than a 200 horse tractor could handle. We also have several dozen 4640s and 4840s in this area, and they are very solid tractors, but the fact is that we have guys using them for loader/yard tractors. That should give you some idea of the type of equipment we deal with here. Most head gasket problems on the older 466 engines are due to warped heads, low liner protrusion and excessive horsepower and lugging. We have several 4840s running around 220 horsepower, and they will take out a head gasket when loaded excessively. However, on the newer engines, such as the 6076 and 6081, which are used in 8000 series tractors, we have seen zero headgasket problems, even on the ones that are making 280 horsepower and more, so apparently Deere has had that problem figured out for quite some time. The only problems we've seen are a few water pumps, some injection pump problems, and a set of nozzles here and there. So they've been pretty trouble-free, considering that are probably close to, if not more than 100 8000 tractors that we work on regularly. We typically run between 100 and 110 tractors through our shop during our winter promotions, of which probably 80 or so are 150 hp and above. The rest would be 4430s, 4440s and the like. Like I posted before, there is a market for these tractors, and we are selling them, not just leasing them. I believe we have sold 5 or 6 8020 tractors already, which is pretty good considering the farm economy.

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hunter

10-09-2002 20:30:20

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Re: Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to scottAR no payments, 10-09-2002 19:18:15

G-man you are right in the ball park per
the Nebraska tests at>Link
292hp>Link at 2000 rpms for 2 hours burning 16 gals
per hours - very impressive - I would think
the cubic inches are a little short as the
engine is being pushed very hard with 29psi
boost observed. We do know that the machine
will not be subjected to this kind of steady
power requirement - so I'm sure Deere has
it figured out and it will live.

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G Taylor

10-09-2002 08:17:12

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Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to G-MAN, 10-08-2002 13:41:24

If making approx 300Hp then fuel consumption would be about 20 US gallons per hour. Field consumption would be typical 15 to 18 gph. How many customers complain about fuel usage until they figure out the numbers are pretty good?

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G-MAN

10-09-2002 10:46:27

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Re: Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to G Taylor, 10-09-2002 08:17:12

I don't know that we've ever had a complaint about fuel consumption. The guys that buy tractors like the 8520 are the ones that have always had the biggest tractors out. They bought 4630s new, moved up to 4840s, then 4850s, 4960s, 8400s and so on, so they have a pretty good idea that high horsepower takes a lot of fuel. I probably should have clarified just what this tractor is and how it's set up in my original post, so guys that aren't familiar with them will know exactly what it is. It has 480/80R50 duals on the back, 420/85R34 duals on the front, one 1400 lb weight in each rear wheel, another 1000 lbs on each rear dual, and 2200 lbs on the front end. Hitch lift capacity is 17,800 lbs. It has five SCVs, the ILS front axle (standard on the 8520), and the list goes on and on. This tractor amounts to a medium sized four wheel drive in power, and would likely drag a 9100 or 9200 around backwards in the field. This tractor is way beyond what 95% of farmers would ever need, but there is a market for the other 5%, and that's why they're building them. The first 8520 we sold went to some guys that farm around 10,000 acres of row-crop, and they also have two 8400s and two 8410s. They traded in an 8410T on their 8520. That's the type of buyer these tractors are aimed at, and they will sell, regardless of cost.

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mike3

10-09-2002 06:26:56

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Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to G-MAN, 10-08-2002 13:41:24

G-man you sold me, But please let me know how to pay for such a machine with the ag economy the way it is. Wouldn't it be more afordable to build a tractor with mechanical linkages insted of electronics to do everything? Deere needs to get real and build something we can afford.

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G-MAN

10-09-2002 07:47:17

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Re: Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to mike3, 10-09-2002 06:26:56

I don't know how anyone can afford one, but the fact is that we're selling them, and selling them to guys that are trading in low-hour 8000 and 8000 Ten tractors on them. I imagine that if you can keep new enough tractors, and trade while they still have good value, it will probably work. Like everybody else these days, Deere also has some pretty good financing going for these tractors. You mention mechanical linkages, but the fact is that mechanical linkages would probably be more expensive than electronics. I'm pretty sure a switch, a solenoid and a few feet of wire are probably cheaper to make than rods, bell cranks, rod ends, levers and the like. Also, if Deere were to quit building electronic tractors, they would quickly be left behind, as every major manufacturer is leaning in that direction. The fact is that the electronics do make the tractor and operator more efficient, and what with the new emissions laws, electronic controls for the engine and transmission are necessary to comply with them. Your basic old 4840 has injection pressures around 4000 psi or so, the new 20 series tractors have injection pressures in excess of 22,000 psi, just to atomize the fuel enough for a complete burn. That same 20 series tractor will start without ether at temperatures the 4840 won't even think about starting at, due to being able to electronically control timing and delivery to suit the air temp. You've got two computers on board for engine and transmission, so you may as well put a couple more on board to keep everything on the same page. Actually, the 20 series electronics are pretty tame compared to the new Cat and Fendt tractors, and the only major difference between a 20 and the plain 8000 tractors is the addition of a few controllers for the ILS and Active-Seat, if the tractor is equipped with them.

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hunter

10-09-2002 20:42:17

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Re: Re: Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to G-MAN, 10-09-2002 07:47:17

g-man wrote:
Your basic old 4840 has injection pressures around 4000 psi or so, the new 20 series tractors have injection pressures in excess of 22,000 psi, just to atomize the fuel enough for a complete burn. That same 20 series tractor will start without ether at temperatures the 4840 won't even think about starting at, due to being able to electronically control timing and delivery to suit the air temp
<<<<<>>>>>
You make a very good point -
and it (the improve fuel delivery)
with the improved turbo design makes
most modern tractors more efficient
than people could ever have imagined.
Most modern diesels are efficient
beyond what could only be dreamed
of in times past - well beyond a jd720
for instance and the 720 was the very top for many many years.

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N.Y FARMER

10-08-2002 21:12:58

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Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to G-MAN, 10-08-2002 13:41:24

bet that 12g versitile dosn't ride like that deere...and won't beat the 8520 on fuel economy...we own a 8410 and a 8310 love them both...all time favorite is the 4430 we bought new in 76...love this site keep up the good work guys

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scottAR

10-09-2002 20:05:12

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Re: Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to N.Y FARMER, 10-08-2002 21:12:58

Now wait a minute, if those power hopping jumping jack 8000 series are so great why is the ole 4430 your favorite? Why? Because on the 4430 you are sitting on top of the ring gear which is the smoothest place on the tractor. Before JD made the 8000 series they should have asked the 1086 IH engineers where not to put a cab. You don't want to feel what the front wheels are driving over. I don't know about the fuel economy of the new JD but the ole Versatile will only use about 60% of the fuel of an 8640. Now the 8630 is a different story as they use no fuel because they are all in the shop getting new engines.

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scottAR

10-08-2002 18:09:46

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Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to G-MAN, 10-08-2002 13:41:24

My gosh, for $190000 I could buy one hundred fifty one more 895 Versatiles like the one I bought for $12500 and any one of them will out pull that computer machine and do it at 180 degrees all day long.

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G-MAN

10-09-2002 07:37:26

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Re: Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to scottAR, 10-08-2002 18:09:46

I worked on a lot of Versatile four wheel drives when I worked for a New Holland dealership. 90% of our business was four wheel drives. The Versatiles and their successors are simple, reliable, and generally inexpensive tractors, but you're going to have trouble converting one for row-crop use, it would seem to me. You're also going to have trouble finding one with a 3 pt. hitch, PTO and so forth. You're trying to compare apples and oranges.

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Corn Borer

10-09-2002 04:49:22

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Re: Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to scottAR, 10-08-2002 18:09:46

I had the misfortune to be a technician at a JD dealership that also sold Versas**ts. What primitive piles of cobbled together junk they were. The 7020/7520 JD's were much more advanced than even the Designation 6 series. The only advantage they had over JD was they were cheap HP, but of course they had no resale value, another example of you getting what you pay for. Even though our shop foreman would have disagreed, a Steiger was a much better tractor, evidenced by their building 4WD's for C-IH, Ford, Massey, Allis, along with themselves. There had to be some reason why Versas**t never had their tractors tested at Nebraska.(Maybe they were afraid that their poor quality wouldn't stand up to an official test?) If the purchaser of CIH/NH had thought that Versas**t was a better machine than the red Steiger, why did they pawn Versas**t off on Buehler?

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scottAR

10-09-2002 19:49:29

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Re: Re: Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to Corn Borer, 10-09-2002 04:49:22

I was told that I was comparing apples and oranges. That is exactly what you are doing when you put a 7020 in the same category with big tractors. I've seen 4020s that would pull with them and 1466 IH that would out pull them. But they do have good hydraulics and syncro transmission. CaseIH didn't want Versatile because they couldn't sell enough parts. Too many of the parts are available at truck parts discounters.

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Brokenwrench

10-08-2002 15:55:10

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Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to G-MAN, 10-08-2002 13:41:24

They may be nice tractors when new, but the test will come in 6-8 years when all the electronics take a dump. I own 4 4960�s, all in excess of 13000 hrs, mechanically they are in great shape, but the electronics are a nightmare. The starters and alternators hold up OK but the wiring harnesses, connectors, switches, dashes, and the cabs in general are a constant source of problems. These tractors are not in any way as complicated electronics wise as are the new ones and I will be interested to see how the new ones hold up under severe usage. Mine run 24-7 four months a year, and 25-30 hrs. a week the rest of the year. It will be interesting to see if the 85�s can do that with out a complete electronics overhaul, or a Tech to chase them constantly with a laptop.

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G-MAN

10-08-2002 16:43:40

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Re: Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to Brokenwrench, 10-08-2002 15:55:10

The main electrical problems we see with 50, 55 and 60 series tractors are involved with the split-loom over the wiring becoming old and brittle and connectors failing. The other common problem is dirt building up around the load center circuit board and causing corrosion on the printed circuit board. This usually causes the lights to do funny things, and occasionally problems with electronic troubleshooting. So far, the 8000 tractors are pretty trouble-free, as far as age and the wiring. They've been out for 8+ years, we have some with 5000 to 6000 hours, and we don't see near as many wiring type failures as the 60 series on back. You would also be surprised to know that they aren't that much more complicated than your 60 series tractors are. There are more controllers, but the solid-state electronics in those seldom give problems. The main additions to what your 60 series tractors have would be the solenoids for transmission and SCV control and those types of things. Once again, they are pretty simple and trouble free. The harnesses are much better protected, and use better connectors in key areas. Most of the wiring is also completely covered up, which keeps direct sunlight off the split loom and connectors, which destroys them faster than anything. I'm not saying that the 8000s will be free from wiring problems forever, but they seem to be holding up better than the 55s and 60s. To me, if a tractor gave me 8000 or 10,000 hours of service and was mechanically troube-free, I wouldn't feel to bad about having to replace a wiring harness or two, and weather-pack connectors are pretty simple to replace. It doesn't matter what kind of tractor it is, wiring and electrical problems WILL develop sooner or later - look at the old 24-volt systems. Electronics aren't the answer for everyone, but as a tech that has to work on tractors covering 40 or 50 years, I'd much rather replace a switch, potentiometer or sensor on an electronic hitch than pull a rockshaft valve and go through it, replace a FEMA valve on a transmission than split a tractor to fix a stuck two-speed valve, or install a new SCV solenoid than rebuild one of the old SCV boxes. My two cents.

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10-08-2002 15:24:53

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Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to G-MAN, 10-08-2002 13:41:24

I think most tractors hitting the market today are running strong. Most anything running the horse power its rated at will look sick against the competition!

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JDGnut

10-08-2002 14:04:54

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Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to G-MAN, 10-08-2002 13:41:24

AAA.. Try pulling it down past rated to find peek power.. it will be the top of the Power Bulge. About 1900rpms She's probably pushing 305-310 at peak... But U are almost dreaming on the 300Hp at rated.. But I have seen tractors much higher than that... (some production.. most not) Yes, it is very possible for it to have that kind of power, but not without a little help. After a few hrs the HP increase will level off... Working it on the dyno it will level off much quicker. The ENGINE will have no problem at those HP.. for some Genset the engine is setup to run 420hp at 1800rpms.. and they have been much higher than that.
JDGnut

G-Man.. I'll drop you an email.. there are a few other issues with the 20 series..

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G-MAN

10-08-2002 14:45:24

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Re: Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to JDGnut, 10-08-2002 14:04:54

I'll have to dyno it again when it comes in from the demos. It's going out with a disk to at least 16 demos so far, so I know it won't be getting babied. I still think it will be pushing 300 when it gets properly broken in, but it will also be cool if not cold outside and that makes a big difference. I did pull it down past rated, to about 950 or so PTO rpm, and got it up around 320 horsepower or so, but only for a few seconds. Our dyno is rated for 375 hp, but even with a 1 inch hose feeding cool water in at around 50 or 60 gallons per minute, we have trouble keeping it cool. I could only pull for about 20 minutes or so before the dyno would get within 20 degrees of blowing the thermal fuse, so I would have to take off the load and let her cool for a while. I know for a fact that we have a bone-stock (no aftermarket doo-dads) 8400 with in excess of 5000 hours that will turn 300 horsepower, and I was looking back through our dyno records and found an 8300 that has around 280 and several other good-running 8000s also, so well-over-rated horsepower on 8000 series tractors is the norm around here, and we probably have around 100 8000s that we work on. I know of only two customers that have the aftermarket gizmos on there tractors. We do the biggest share of our dyno pulls during winter promotions, so obviously the cool, dry winter air helps the numbers, but there are still some real stout tractors running around this area - from 30 series on up.

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JDGnut

10-08-2002 14:55:25

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Re: Re: Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to G-MAN, 10-08-2002 14:45:24

Some of the 8000.. did get out a little higher.. but with the HPCR engine the ECU has much more control of the output.. (also EPA is getting tighter with the Tier II emmisions.) I know what U mean about the 8000's thou.. I had some 8300's easy in the 250+ range... They problem with the dyno getting too hot, and too small of dyno's is becoming a problem.. That's why they are looking at other ways to help diagnose some of the problems.. but sometimes you just have to work them to find out.. We have to run a 600hp dyno on our engine.. and it can still get warm... JDGnut

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G-MAN

10-08-2002 15:01:54

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Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 8520 performance......... in reply to JDGnut, 10-08-2002 14:55:25

I think dealerships are going to have to start buying bigger dynos in the future. We try to run our overhauls a minimum of 5 or 6 hours to begin break-in, and in the summertime pulling a 4960 at 225 or so, we have to keep an eye on the dyno temp. I don't think it would ever actually get hot enough to blow the fuse, but we don't like to let it get real hot anyway. It's not too cheap when you have to rebuild that drum. It would be nice to have other ways to do troubleshooting, but it's also hard to match a dyno for properly loading an engine and seeing exactly what it's doing.

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