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JD 420 Carb timing

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JD Earl

08-26-2002 22:16:00




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I have a 1956 420 standard and it has been back firing through the carb. I picked up the timing tool for the oil pump and went that round. I beleive I have it timed correctly. My question is the sheet metal around the exhaust stack gets very HOT! So hot you can't touch it within a foot of the stack. Is this Normal? This is much Hotter than before I messed with the timing.

Is the #1 cylinder the front? I just want to make sure I am timing the pump off of the right cylinder.

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G-MAN

08-29-2002 06:04:40




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 Re: JD 420 Carb timing in reply to JD Earl, 08-26-2002 22:16:00  
Earl, the mthod Steve gave you for timing the engine will work well, and more than one tractor has been timed by ear and ran fine. One other thing you might want to check, before timing the engine, is the andvance mechanism in the distributor, assuming it has one. This mechanism allows timing to advance as engine speed increases, increasing power and performance. As the engine speeds up, the pistons are coming up more quickly, and the ignition needs to happen sooner - hence the advance mechanism. It's also been my experience, and I'm sure that of others on this board, that the factory timing spec is rarely the ideal one for the engine, in terms of maximum power and performance. Stock timing is usually a compromise between decent power and decent economy. Most engines usually like a little more advance and will run better with it. Even if you don't pull, I'm assuming that you want the engine to run as well as it can. Most pullers put the tractor on the dyno and adjust timing for maximum power. If there is a starting problem, they back it off slightly and run it. Timing lights are great for getting an engine in the ballpark, but most of the good mechanics use their ear and experience from there.

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Steve - IN

08-27-2002 13:30:49




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 Re: JD 420 Carb timing in reply to JD Earl, 08-26-2002 22:16:00  
Earl or Bill, Maybe it would help to start with a simple way to set timing that will work with any old 4 cycle engine with a distributor (2 cycles like your weed wacker don't count here) using no test equipment, and that's more precise and easier to do than moving one gear tooth at a time. You just need to put in one brand new spark plug.

The case of the distributor is usually held by a kind of collar to the engine block. If you loosen a bolt or two close to the block, the distributor case can move in a circle while the shaft with the rotor inside stays put. That's the easy way to change timing. Loosen those bolts without moving the distributor then start the engine and run it at idle then medium speed until it gets to normal temperature.

Put your hand on the case (not the cap or wires) of the distributor and rotate it slowly left and right. You'll hear the engine speed up or slow down as a result of turning the distributor. Move the distributor until you get the fastest engine speed, then turn it back the other way a bit to be safe. You don't want to ignite the gas too soon or too late at any engine speed so you're trying to strike a kind of balance. The engine tells you by making more speed where it's happy -- as it's getting the best combustion from the same amount of gas at that "best" ignition setting. Next bolt down the distributor and get on.

Ride around a little bit, accelerating the engine, or even pulling something. If you hear it pinging when it's under load - making a rattle kind of noise - then the plugs are probably firing too soon and you need to turn the distributor back a bit and try again. When there's no ping -- run it around a bit more then shut down the engine and pull out that new plug.

If the plug is a kind of light brown -- you're in real good shape. If it has kind of white powder on it, you're running too hot, and need to back up the distributor a bit more. If it's black and sooty, you're not running too hot, but the carb is too rich -- wasting gas. There are all kinds of things you can tell by looking at plugs. Here's a link that will give you bunches of pictures of plugs and what they indicate about the way your engine is running.

The timing adjustment has to assume you've done nothing else to the engine during this - so you have a good baseline. For example, no octane change in the gas, no wrenching on the carb that might cause an intake leak to make it run lean and hot, no changes in level or type of coolant, and so on. If you get too many things changing at once you end up not knowing where you are, and what made the results you're getting.

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Clooney

08-27-2002 03:18:30




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 Re: JD 420 Carb timing in reply to JD Earl, 08-26-2002 22:16:00  
JD Earl, you aren't actually timing the pump [there isn't anything in the oil pump that needs timing] you are setting the oil pump drive to allow the distributor to be run at the correct location. Did you actually set the ignition timing [move the distributor] to set the ign timing correctly, either with a timing light [dynamic] or at TDC while turning the distributor rotor in the reverse direction [static]?
~If not, you will need to set the ignition timing.
~If it is running late it will make the exhaust hotter due to the fuel/air charge igniting late & still burning while leaving the engine.
~Other things that can effect the hood temperature are missing heat shields [I believe there is one on the hood & one bolted to the rear of the head] & an exhaust leak [make sure you aren't leaking exhaust at the muffler to manifold joint]...

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JD Earl

08-28-2002 17:27:57




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 Re: Re: JD 420 Carb timing in reply to Clooney, 08-27-2002 03:18:30  
Mr Clooney can you give me directions on how to time the engine as you discribe?

Also am I correct in the fact the front cylinder is #1. I have been told by others that when the distributor is timed correctly the rotor should point at the #1 cylinder at TDC? Whats your take on this.



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Clooney

08-28-2002 17:50:13




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 Re: Re: Re: JD 420 Carb timing in reply to JD Earl, 08-28-2002 17:27:57  
JD Earl, if it runs now you have the rotor pointed to the correct cylinder.
~Before I give you timing directions I need to know if you have a timing light & a way to power it [if your tractor is still 6 volt you will need to power the light from a battery charger or 12 volt battery from your car or truck].
~If you don't have a light I will give you the static method.



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JD Earl

08-28-2002 20:44:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 420 Carb timing in reply to Clooney, 08-28-2002 17:50:13  
Thanks Clooney, When I attached the distributor the rotor was pointing at 4 o-clock at TDC and I am thinking it should be 2 o-clock or so,which makes me believe I am off 1 tooth on the oil pump timing? What do you think?

I do have a timing light and I have a 12 volt battery to power it.

Thanks for the help.



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Steve - IN

08-27-2002 01:52:00




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 Re: JD 420 Carb timing in reply to JD Earl, 08-26-2002 22:16:00  
Reading about pumps, but I'm guessing ignition timing. More ignition advance generally makes more power and more heat. After a point, more advance makes no extra power, but a lot more heat.

#1 is the one out front. Doubt it would run if you were timing off the wrong cylinder. If you're using a timing light, you've picked the right one. Have you run it under load and heard it ping? If so, it's too far advanced. Best to be safe in any event and retard it a bit. Old engines get loose so they can stand a little more than the new spec for timing -- but still best to give up a little power for the sake of preserving the engine. Also, a richer mixture will cool it down somewhat. If you get scientific about it, most new engines do best at around 1400 degrees exhaust gas temp for power vs. longevity -- but have a heart and back it off to 1100 or 1200 for a 46 year old engine.

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JD Earl

08-28-2002 17:33:06




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 Re: Re: JD 420 Carb timing in reply to Steve - IN, 08-27-2002 01:52:00  
Steve I guess my dilemma is compared to a 420 I heard at a show last week my engine sounds like it is always under a little bit of a load(meaning the exhaust is louder and poppier). The one I heard run at the show was so smooth at idle you could hear the pistons moving up and down against the cylinder wall.



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Steve - IN

08-28-2002 21:49:15




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 Re: Re: Re: JD 420 Carb timing in reply to JD Earl, 08-28-2002 17:33:06  
JD Earl,

The grass is always greener, isn't it. I usually walk away from a show having seen something on somebody else's machine that I liked better than mine. Were you at the Portland, IN show?

The sound is most likely a function of the muffler. A guy could stuff in a glass pack or weld in some baffles to get that. A good muffler shop might be able to fix you right up, as those kids with "tuner cars" go for that sort of thing now.

Did you check on the plug color or get any better feeling about your heat worries? Make any headway on the distributor timing?

take care,

Steve

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JD Earl

08-28-2002 21:54:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 420 Carb timing in reply to Steve - IN , 08-28-2002 21:49:15  
Steve I am having to hold tight for the next 2 weeks or so. I have to get that darn gall bladder taken out tomorrow so I have hade to put the 420 on the back burner so to speak.

Thanks Earl



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Steve - IN

08-28-2002 22:26:10




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 420 Carb timing in reply to JD Earl, 08-28-2002 21:54:35  
JD Earl,

Understand. Good luck under the knife. Get out of that hospital as soon as possible. Sometimes they pass along as many diseases as they cure in those places.

Steve



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