Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Attention Forum Users: On the 28th of December 2023 at 9:00am Central Time, we will be taking the forums down for maintenance while we prepare the new forums for your use. Please click here for more information.

Discussion Forum
:

41 B starting trouble again. (Help Clooney!)

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
gary

08-17-2002 16:07:15




Report to Moderator

Clooney,
Once again I am standing hat in hand, red faced, looking for your help.
For some reason, my 41 B stopped hand starting again. It was fine for months, and all of a sudden would only start if pulled. My spark looked OK, but maybe not as strong as it should. The weather here has been extremely hot and dry so the mag has not been exposed to moisture, and appears dry. The spark plugs were a little greasy, I cleaned them up and I don't think that was the problem. You may remember my last experience with this problem...you correctly diagnosed the problem as a broken impulse spring in the mag. The good news is that the impulse spring is intact.
The bad news is that I took the mag apart BEFORE reading the downloaded and printed out, beautfully described technique for removing the mag that you sent me months ago. I did NOT record where the position of the rotor cap, although I did mark where the mag was set. I also, for some inexplicabel reason, loosened but did not remove the lock screws which you specifically told me in your earlier post NOT to do, unless the timing marks and witness marks were off. I don't THINK anything changed, but don't know how to tell. They were NOT loose, actually quite tight.
If there is any way to get me at least back to where I started butchering, please advise.
Thanks in advacne
Gary

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Clooney

08-17-2002 17:05:08




Report to Moderator
 Re: 41 B starting trouble again. (Help Clooney!) in reply to gary, 08-17-2002 16:07:15  
Gary, I'm sorry I forgot the mag make & model you have & can't seem to find the mag posting in the archives. Unfortunately I cleaned out my sent E-Mail folder about a week ago also, so please refresh me on the mag type.
~If it runs good after pull starting it sounds like the mag was re-assembled correctly, but still could have a mag impulse or low spark problem during starting. ~Can you get a BLUE spark to jump a 1/4" plug gap repeatedly while hand cranking with the both spark plugs in? If not lets start there. If the spark will jump a 1/4" gap we'll move on to the next likely issue....

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
gary

08-18-2002 06:00:25




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: 41 B starting trouble again. (Help Clooney!) in reply to Clooney, 08-17-2002 17:05:08  
Clooney,
I am afraid to reinstall the mag until I understand how to put it back correctly. The mag is off, and I failed to note where the rotor cap was facing, so need a little help there. I also loosened (but did not remove) those four screws that you had told me NOT to loosen unless I had to, but I don't think anything was changed. It is a Wico Model X mag, and it says 25 degrees on the Drive Cup. I noticed that the witness marks are alternating short and long marks. I noticed that the stop is set between the first short mark and and the first long mark (on the left), which seems to me to conflict with your instructions to have them set 2 1/2 to 4 1/2 left of center. Again, I don't think that changed when I loosened the screws, it looks like I will need some lubrication in order to change the setting even with the screws loose. I checked my spark before I removed the mag, simply by shorting it to the tractor. I don't have a crisp blue spark every time I crank it. I am using Champion D23 plugs, which shocked me when I just went out to check, because I thought I had put Autolite plugs in both of my tractors, based on advice I received on this board. Now I am wondering if I could have avoided this whole mess by just changing the plugs. When I got this tractor, the carburtor needed cleaning badly, and you guided me through that, and since then, this tractor would start everytime on one to four cranks. Every now and then it would give me a little trouble and I would remove and clean the plugs, and that would take care of the problem. Once, the impulse spring broke, which as I said you guided me through. The tractor is seldom worked, although I did use it to plow a small piece of ground for a garden in the spring. Most of the time I start it up just to hear it run, and take it for a short spin down the road or up in the yard. (I know that isn't the best way to run the tractor, but it is hard to just let it sit.) That is about the best I can do to fill in the blanks, if you can give some guidance on re-installing the mag, I'll change my plugs, check the spark and take it from there. (I do have a full stream of fuel to the carb. Thanks in advance for any help baling me out.
Gary

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Clooney [mag install]

08-18-2002 11:02:35




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: 41 B starting trouble again. (Help Clooney!) in reply to Clooney, 08-18-2002 07:18:32  
Gary,
1)..Remove the L/H spark plug & turn the flywheel in starting direction until compression is felt at the hole, then continue turning until the L/H impulse on the flywheel is lined up with the case mark [at 3 o'clock behind flywheel].
2)..Install a wire or paper clip in the top wire tower & bend to be 1/8" from the case, then turn the mag until it snaps & you see a spark at the wire [go slowly & use restraint so the mag impulse doesn't spin too far after it snaps], then back the impulse cup up until it has the drive lugs running fore/aft with the mag held in the in tractor position.
3)..Now install the mag on the tractor & leave the attaching bolts sort of loose. Then turn the top of the mag all the way to the front.
4)..Then back the flywheel up 1/2 turn & turn it back to L/H impulse lining up with the case mark [that will arm the mag].
5)..Now rotate the top of the mag to the rear [slowly] until it snaps, then tighten the retaining bolts.
6)..Then turn the flywheel in the forward direction & verify that the mag snaps when the L/H impulse lines up with the case mark [if not adjust the mag position until it does].
7).. Install the L/H plug wire in the top tower & R/H in the bottom.
~If we can't verify what impulse cup you have you probably should set the impulse stop ring to be 2-1/2 marks left of the center mark as that is a good starting point even if you have a different base cup. Once it is running let me know & I will tell you how to check the running timing if you have a timing light..... .

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
gary

08-18-2002 13:18:39




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 41 B starting trouble again. (Help Clooney!) in reply to Clooney [mag install], 08-18-2002 11:02:35  
Clooney,
There is a # on the drive cup. It is 6274. I have printed your instructions to date, and will move on with that information while I am waiting for the next post. I apologize for making you type so much, I think some of this information is redundant, and you have answered it before. It I had noted the position of that rotor, I may not have had to bother you at all. (It still seems like those witness marks may not be aligned correctly though, didn't check that the last time I had trouble.)
But at any rate, I know much more about the mag now than I did before, so there is some light at the end of the tunnel.
Gary

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Clooney

08-18-2002 13:52:53




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 41 B starting trouble again. (Help Clooney!) in reply to gary, 08-18-2002 13:18:39  
Gary, that is interesting, according to the info I have (courtesy of Rod) that 6274 drive cup makes the center mark 3*. If that is true you will need that stop ring 4-1/2 marks or so to the left of center. ~If that info is accurate & you were running 1-1/2 marks left of center you were only running 10.5* of running timing [did it run like it was running late?]
~I guess it's your call whether or not to move the stop ring to 4-1/2 marks. In any case you want to at least have 2-1/2 to 3 marks left of center. Then after getting it running we will check the running timing with a timing light to see what you have. Do you have a timing light?

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
gary

08-18-2002 14:57:06




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 41 B starting trouble again. (Help Clooney!) in reply to Clooney, 08-18-2002 13:52:53  
Clooney,
Yes, I have a timing light buried somewhere in my garage, haven't used it for years. Yes it did seem like if is running late. (In other works it seems to me like it takes awhile for it to respond to an increase in throttle. Is that what you mean by "running late"?) but..... ...
Actually, I think the setting for the drive cup might be very close to right on. I did not give you a left or right of center measurement. I gave you the distance the mark was from the extreme left hand point. In other words, if it were an odometer and the left side was zero, on a scale of zero to ten, the setting would be about 1 and 1/2. I wont know for sure until I check, but I think that is pretty close to where the "4 and 1/2 left of center" would end up. The thing that gets me is the intermittency of this problem. Day after day I'll go out and start it easily, then all of sudden, using the exact same technique, I will begin to have problems.
Also, some additional info: the points look good, but I probably should check the gap while I am going through all this. What about those spark plugs? Do you think it would make that much of a dfference if I changed to Autolite? Can I measure the resistance of the plug wires to determine if they are good? This mag looks brand new, the old guy that owned this before me seemed very meticulous, and this is not a relic pulled out of a tree row, although I know very little information about the tractor's history. I guess when I get everything back together I will do your "spark test" and make sure I have adequate spark and take it from there. I have an annoying habit of putting the cart before the horse when troubleshooting these things. I immediately thought the impulse spring had broke again when in started so easlily when I rolled it off the hill! A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!
One last question, why does the drive couple say 25 of the setting should be # degrees?

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Clooney

08-18-2002 15:35:32




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 41 B starting trouble again. (Help Clooney!) in reply to gary, 08-18-2002 14:57:06  
Gary, the intermittent starting could be anything from old gas to oxidized points to low compression due to the oil running off the cylinder walls, [do you always shut if off the same way?].
~There is a lot if controversy on spark plug type & with all the people that say Champions don't work for them there might be some merit, but I haven't been able to prove it on my tractors [I use Champions in many of mine without any problems].
~You might try new plugs & a different brand, but whatever plug you choose I would suggest trying .040" plug gap as that makes your coil put out a little more KV at spark time & seems to improve the starting & low speed running.
~You can measure the resistance of the plug wires, not sure what you should see but they should be solid metal core & show very LOW resistance.
~Next time it won't start roll the flywheel over easily & listen to the mag snap, it should snap when the L/H impulse on the flywheel lines up with the case mark, if it does [or close] the mag impulse spring & impulse are working correctly.
~Take an old spark plug & open the gap to 1/4" & keep that handy, next time it won't start install that in one of the plug wires & lay on the block then crank it over, if you see a blue spark & can get it multiple times the mag is working good & your problem lies elsewhere.
~Not sure why some mag drive cups are marked in degrees but the 25* seems to be used on some mags that were used in all-fuel to gasoline conversions to lower the running timing from 35* to 25* & keep the mag somewhat centered in it's adjustment slots. That would be a good question for Robert Beaver..... .

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy