Synthetic Oil

Here's another link, which gives some Federally funded research / testing on synthetics. http://p2library.nfesc.navy.mil/P2_Opportunity_Handbook/6_II_4.html

What I gather from all the above is the following syllogism: Synthetic oil reduces bearing friction better at extremely high temps and extremely low temps. Friction is bad. Therefore synthetics are good. Simple, huh?

Another interesting tidbit I picked up was that old manuals recommending non detergent oils did so because old detergent oils used something akin to Ajax for their detergent properties. So the better way to reduce friction was with non detergent oil -- friction reduction being the primary reason for using any oil.

Steve

• Everything WRONG with synthetic oil.

And Barry - I'm sorry if we spoiled your thread on the legitimate question of using Mobil-1 in your B. Rest assured, you will do it no harm. It will probably even help.

As for the motorcycle synthetic page, be careful - there might be one or two readers here who will actually believe that one! LOL!!

As a further note: They cured the detergency problem when they switched from Ajax to Bon Ami, eh Steve? -smile-

With that, I bow out of this discussion.

Too many good snippets in your post to resist.

I've got a sign, late of my garage, now my barn, which reads: "Don't assume. Check it out." Probably good words to live by. Then again, I also have a sign that reads: "NO SNIVELING" JJ's Cantina, Cholla Bay Mexico.

Mobil says they discovered / invented synthetic oil in 1949. But then I read that synthetic oils were first used in the first jets. (they could hold up to the intense heat on the main shaft). That leads to Whittle in 1936, the first jet engine -- or to the Jumo or BMW jets in Messerschmidt 262's and Heinkels, the first operational jets. Probably more likely, as the WWII Germans were in to synthesizing anything to replace crude oil petroleum. Anyway, it's not something totally new unless you consider 50 years or so new.

Barry, there used to be a disgusting saying among the crude elements of oval track and road racing that went something like: "like giving an enema to a dead man, probably won't help, but ain't gonna hurt nothing." I'd rank synthetic oils far above that, but worst case, "ain't gonna hurt" is your fall back.

Those Brit bikers don't lie, do they?

Thanks for setting me straight on the Bon Ami. I thought it might be Comet cleanser.

Whatever you decide on the oil, Barry, change it and the filter like they vote in Chicago: early and often.

Steve

The Germans used synthetics back in WWII when petroleum was in short supply. The Brits used it in their first jets, as we did too. Again, conventional oils couldn't stand up to the demands of jet engine service. Even today, with the advances in mineral oils, you'll find that synthetics haven't been replaced in these aviation uses - synthetics have only gotten better.

Mobil and AMSOIL introduced synthetics to the general consumer market in 1973. Both oils were 25,000 mile oils. Mobil backed off, but AMSOIL kept plugging away at it. Mobil got back into the market - though I'm not certain when. Mobil no longer claims their oil will go 25,000 miles. I don't know if this is because of marketing ploys, or if they reduced the TBN (total base number) of their oil. That's one item they leave off their spec sheet. Even with extended drain intervals, you need to change the filters at the usual intervals. They may have just assumed that the general public wouldn't do one without doing the other.

An interesting side note here is that in Europe, as I understand it, they specify approximately 9,000 miles (actual number is 15,000 km) as the prescribed change interval. I've heard that they want to move that up to about 15,000 miles. They're doing this for several reasons - but mostly because of oil conservation and environmental conservation issues. They are very much into synthetic development over there.

The oil companies are seeing the writing on the wall. Everyone is getting into it now. It might not happen in my lifetime, but I believe that all motor oils will be synthetic within the next 30 years.

• oil issue

Neutralizing sulphur in diesel trucks? I've got news for anyone who thinks you'll find much sulphur in today's diesel fuel. The EPA "fixed" that. Particulate matter is the biggest culprit that oils need to deal with in diesel engines. Followed next by the acids. It looked almost like a circa 1965 article. I wonder how much the author of that article really knew about oil?

That (fancy name) zinc additive? Yep, that's what it does. Some racing oils use it, but it serves mostly as a last-ditch mechanism against wear in some very high RPM engines - when there are moments when the oil can't be replenished to all moving parts fast enough. I'm not interested in running my car, truck, or tractor to the point of oil starvation. I could care less about the zinc additive. Newer oils have better ways of preventing friction and wear. Besides, the zinc additive he speaks of is very toxic.

I'll agree that you might get seal leakage if you start using a detergent oil after switching from a non-detergent oil. But this is mainly due to the fact that the crud itself was preventing the seal from leaking. I wouldn't expect this to be the case in a newly rebuilt engine - which was the reason for the original post.

Older oils were better than newer oils? Go ahead - run some grade SA or non-detergent oil in your 2002 Mercedes. They'll laugh you out of the shop when you bring it in for warranty repairs.

The additive packages of modern oils, and I'm speaking of all oils, not just synthetics, are engineered to work together as a complete package. You never know what some of these other additives have in them. I assure you that if you call the maunfacturer, you'll get an answer along the lines of, "it's our own wonderful proprietary ingredients".

I've seen where regular cars and small trucks, using synthetic oils, have easily gone 300,000+ miles.

I assume that Mobil warrants their oils, as does the manufacturer of the synthetics I use. Hopefully, this oil was sent in for analysis.

Synthetics are far superior to conventional motor oils. A 10w (though they don't make that viscosity in synthetic) is far better than the SAE 30 grade oils of 50 years ago. And despite what others may tell you, you will get better protection with a 10w-30 oil than you will with a straight 30 oil. It's how the oil performs when it is cold that really kills or save an engine. Tests indicate that over 80% of all engine wear happens during engine warmup. Synthetic oils flow much better than conventional oils - especially when cold.

Having said the above, I'll make one point... a tractor engine doesn't take the beating that a car engine does. You have far fewer RPMs and lower operating temperatures. You do have considerably more dirt in the environment - but a high-quality air filter will help you here more than the oil. That goes for an oil filter too. It's the dirt in the oil that causes the wear - get the highest quality oil filter you can find. That "name brand" filter that you've seen advertised on tv is *way* down on the list for filtering capacity and capability. Do some research there.

Synthetics won't harm your engine at all. Although you won't get the real benefits using them in a tractor - as opposed to using them in a car.

I use synthetics. Have for years. The molecular chains are consistent in synthetics so you get more consistent and therefore better lubrication than with petro oils composed of long, short and medium chain molecules.

In my old JD's I use Mobil 1 10w-30 -- the type formulated for older engines. There's a different additive package in this version, primarily composed of esther, which plugs old gaskets and seals just like a petro oil does.

As for break in, I'll just quote the following from Motor Magazine, founded 1903. Feb. 2000 issue, link below.

"There's not a shred of evidence to suggest that synthetic motor oils delay or prevent piston ring break-in. Maxwell speculates that the rumor got started when synthetics first came to market, and attributes it to the psyche of consumers using the new product for the first time. Remember, back in the mid-'70s conventional oil sold for about 69 cents a can. Synthetics, on the other hand, came in at a hefty 4 bucks a pop. To justify spending so much more, consumers frequently checked the oil level of their new vehicles as if expecting to see some sort of miraculous benefit. What they found instead was a crankcase down a quart of oil, which they attributed to the synthetic. In reality, losing a quart of oil during break-in was standard fare on engines of this era, regardless of the type of oil used. Unfortunately, synthetics got the blame. And they're still trying to live it down.

That's what I've read. Here's what I know from hands on experience. I raced for a lot of years. Usually built 6 or so engines a year. Very, very loose bottom end tolerance engines. Not made to last, but to run strong. You're always looking for a few extra HP, so always trying things. They'd give us either Valvoline or Pennzoil for free if we'd put the sticker on the car. Show up at the track and get a few free cases of oil. Why spend 4 bucks a quart for synthetic? Looking for HP, that's why. So we did an A/B comparison. Two new engines, same machine shop, same tolerances, same bearing maker, basically the same engine cloned twice over. One with Valvoline 50 wt, the other with Amsoil 20-40. Same race, same day, same ambient temps. The engine with the synthetic ran cooler in terms of water temp and oil temp. We guessed less friction in the synthetic oil engine was making less heat, and maybe more power. Pressure was down to about 50 psi synthetic vs 60 to 70 psi on the Valvoline engine when hot(same oil pump, same adjustment, same brand gauges). So I decided to pull both pans to see what the wear looked like. The engine on synthetic had bearings that looked just like they did when they were put in. The petro oil engine already had silver streaks in the nice gray bearing babbitt. It had worn more despite more oil pressure. Cranking compression check was still around 350 psi for both engines --no difference -- apparently no ring break in problem. Leakdown test said the same thing. My conclusion was the synthetic made less friction, and less wear. Only downside was that it costs more than the petro oil -- even if you're paying for it.

That's why I've used synthetics since then. I used the free Valvoline in street cars and trucks -- engines I figured I'd have for 3-5 years. For the good engines, the prized engines, something like an expensive race engine or your '51B or my '54 60 I'd use the most expensive oil because I've seen that it will take better care of them.

Steve

• Motor Magazine

I can find the exact opposite statement on the Mobil 1 site, copied and pasted below:
===== ===== ===== ===== ==
(myth) You should break in your engine with conventional oil, then switch to Mobil 1. (reality) You can start using Mobil 1 with SuperSyn� in new vehicles at any time, even in brand-new vehicles. In fact, Mobil 1 with SuperSyn� is original equipment (it is installed at the factory) in:

Chevrolet Corvette All Porsche vehicles Mercedes-Benz AMG vehicles Dodge Viper Ford Mustang Cobra R All Aston Martin cars

One of the myths that persists about Mobil 1 is that new engines require a break-in period with conventional oil. Current engine manufacturing technology does not require this break-in period. As indicated by the decisions of the engineers who design these high-performance cars, Mobil 1 with SuperSyn� can be used in an engine from the day you drive the car off the showroom floor. ===== ===== ===== =====
The link below will take you to the statement above on the Mobil 1 site.

• Mobil 1 break in and

Sorry about that. I'll clean up my act.

Steve

When it comes to resolving this warranty issue, AMSOIL feels the customer could get a faster resolution if the were no side issues to investigate. He essentially said, "it is just easier, when there is a problem, if you use the OEM oil until the first oil change".

AMSOIL's web page www.amsoil.com makes no statements that I could find, one way or another, on using synthetics during break-in.

I'm inferring from what you say that if a rebuild doesn't have well machined parts, you just shouldn't use a synthetic. I've never called them, just posted what I found in print.

I didn't find anything about break in on the Amsoil site. Least that's what I thought I said.
I asked if you did. I didn't see your answer.

I'm not trying to sell you the stuff, Rod. I use it, and have used it on fresh rebuilds. If you don't, and don't want to, that's your choice. This freedom of choice stuff is one of the things that makes us proud to be Americans, isn't it? Best of luck is getting 5,000 trouble free hours from your rebuilt engine.

Steve

G Taylor. In addition to using the torque plates, a good Sunnen hone, and the right stones, it also helps to run 200 degree water thru the block while it's being honed. The torque plates simulate the torsional stress of the head and crank, while the water simulates the thermal stress that deforms the block in actual running conditions. You get better sealing in the combustion chamber when you do that -- theory is that the cylinders are more true, and the rings just seat better because of it. Just something to think about. If you like the idea, I'll tell you about dykes rings sometime.

I expect someone to say I'm wrong about the above. Just like synthetics. Interesting things, opinions. One nice thing about racing is that you knew what worked when the green flag dropped and the talk (to use a polite term) stopped. Actually, there generally was no talk. If I found or learned of a trick like hot water honing and synthetics worked on the dyno and on the track, I surely wouldn't talk about it... much less try to persuade a competitor to use it.

I don't view guys here as competitors. If I spout off about something that's worked for me, and even give some substantiation for it -- you're still free to take it or leave it. No hard feelings. Just don't question my ancestry. Life is far too short to argue over free advice.

Glad your car is doing well, G Taylor. A Grand National has a straight rear end, I think. You ought to try a synthetic there. Call me crazy, but my notes say it drops the operating temperature. I take heat as a symptom of friction, and anything that reduces heat as a good lubricant. Don't use synthetics in a sync gearbox, but it's good in straight ones.

Steve

My car will be changed to synthetic ATF at the 30,000 mile automatic service. I'm planning on using AMSOIL - they say to expect 100,000 miles between changes there. To me, it is worth the extra initial expense.

And for that anti-synthetic crowd - and I agree with Steve in an earlier post - do what you like with your equipment, just don't trash me personally - Mercon is synthetic. And from what I understand, the new GM spec DEXTRON will be synthetic.

You hit the nail on the head with the manual gearbox. I should have been more detailed, but the thought is that the syncro rings like a bit more friction to operate properly, and the synthetics are too slippery. Damn synthetics! Ha!

take care,

Steve