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3010/4010 why did they quit making them?

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Alan H.

06-30-2002 13:17:04




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I was wondering, why did JD only make the 3010/4010's in 60'-63'? Were there some major problems that they had to replace them with the 3020/4020? I see dozens of 3020/4020's in my area but rarely ever a 10 series.




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ET

07-02-2002 09:28:37




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 Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Alan H., 06-30-2002 13:17:04  
Deere had many small problems and some big ones with these tractors. The pto was the big failing in my book. There were problems with the sleeves shucking up and down. Have any of you used the old sweeny tool to cut the block and install shims under the sleeve to ajust the deck height. I know of some that had camshaft failures, I think it may have been the oil pump drive gear that wore. The origonal injector pumps had no automatic timing advance. The final drives are heavier in the 20 series. The origonal 24volt wiring that didn't use the insulated jumper cable between the batteries, this burned up both tractors and barns. The hydraulic pump drive coupler is stronger on the 20 series. 3020's use an engine oil cooler the 3010's didn't. John deere has been great with factory modificaton programs and worked out most of the bugs to the point the many people don't remember the teething pains. I think both 4010's and 3010's are great tractors but they were a steping stone to a higher leval.

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jeff 4010

07-01-2002 19:25:12




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 Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Alan H., 06-30-2002 13:17:04  
I have 3 4010's, 1 gas and 2 diesel. Currently overhauling both diesels. They both have the same crack in block. I went back with 4010 block on one and 4020 block on other for test. As far as the PTO tranny trouble, I split all 3 and made them all 540 PTO permanent. The trouble I had was the shaft that shifts from 540 to 1000 wears and gets out of place, one had a penny behind stub shaft to make it work. The gas is strong but thirsty and one cracked and welded block went 25 years. Not bad for a short lived series, my 3 cents worth. jp

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donkey

09-17-2004 14:01:05




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 Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to jeff 4010, 07-01-2002 19:25:12  
how did you make the 540 permanent. i am looking at a 3010 that has a pin broke. aparently this is the weak point in these tractors. the owner has replaced the pin 3 times the last one only has bush hogged about 12 acres. my JD dealer told me that this was a problem. they also told me that when i split the tractor to make the 540 permanent. just wondering how you did it.



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Haywood

07-01-2002 05:42:45




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 Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Alan H., 06-30-2002 13:17:04  
The 4010 i had had a great engine. especially withthe M&W turbo kit. The only problem I had was that when you put on a bush hog and bumped something with it, a pin in the transmission sheared and it would cost $700 to replace a $5 pin. So I got me something else to mow with.



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newgen

07-01-2002 04:50:28




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 Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Alan H., 06-30-2002 13:17:04  
Well put Jim--progress beats resting on laurals any time--look what happenned to IHC when they rested on the laurals of the M---



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JD70Jim

07-01-2002 05:29:29




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 Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to newgen, 07-01-2002 04:50:28  
Look at all of the product improvements everywhere, that resulted from everyone else's reaction to the John Deere 4010.

IHC finally, quit building the venerable "M", finally, and introduced the 06 series.

AC stopped building only Orange Utility tractors and introduced the 180 and 190 series tractors.

Ford likewise, finally introduced SOMETHING that was not a glorified N series tractor.

CASE, OLIVER, MM, and Massey Furgeson all redesigned their tractors, targeting the John Deere tractors specificly. The Oliver 1800 and 1900 were quickly refined into the much better 1850 and 1950 tractors, Massey brought out the 1100, Case made major improvements in their 30 series. MM refined their tractors, setting their target at 110hp with the G1000!

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tubba_JD420c_ny

07-01-2002 17:27:07




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 Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to JD70Jim, 07-01-2002 05:29:29  
Well put, and an excellent analysis. Even by todays standards, the 4010/3010 New Generation with the closed center hydraulics, shift on the go trans, hydrostatic steering, lower link sensing, etc. is right up to date, and at the time, they were 10-20 years ahead of their time. The most copied tractor in history (after the little grey Ford-Ferguson system, sorry :-)



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TP from Central PA

07-01-2002 05:47:35




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 Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to JD70Jim, 07-01-2002 05:29:29  
Since people come to these boards for help, I want to clerify something. IH never really stopped building the "M" style final drive. After the 560 fiasco, the bearings and their carriers were re-engineered and installed into the 656, 666, and 686 which was built into the '80's. Kinda funny you never hear anything about those rear-ends taking a dump....



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G-MAN

07-01-2002 12:29:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to TP from Central PA, 07-01-2002 05:47:35  
Maybe that had something to do with the improved engineering, manufacturing and most of all, metallurgical processes that came along between 1939 and the early 80s?



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JD70Jim

07-01-2002 04:24:20




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 Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Alan H., 06-30-2002 13:17:04  
Well, it's called PROGRESS!

The 4010 was a resounding success, it stomped the 560 farmall into the mud so far that all you could see was the top of the stack, but you know, that pesky IHC undoubtedly had someting up their sleeve, so by 1964, it was necessary to provide a major product improvement. After all, IHC had had three years time to take the 4010 apart and develope something to "beat it"!

As it turned out, that "something" was the 806, and had Deere rested on it's laurels, an 80hp 4010 would have faced a 95hp 806 Farmall, so along with the other improvements, Deere introduced improved tractors and remained competitive.

You might have noticed that IHC found it necessary to deliberately make their tractors about 5hp "bigger" than the John Deere they were competing with. The 71hp 3020 faced the 76hp 756 and the 95hp 4020 faced the 100hp 856! It appeared that IHC NEEDED those extra ponies to convice people to buy their red tractors and not the green ones! The regular "features" were apparantly not any advantage for IHC.

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TP from Central PA

07-01-2002 05:44:05




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 Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to JD70Jim, 07-01-2002 04:24:20  
What did Deere make to compete against the IH 1206, then? Know it did take them awhile to get something with a Turbo to hold together, curious as to what model this was????



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JD70Jim

07-01-2002 09:08:52




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 Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to TP from Central PA, 07-01-2002 05:44:05  
The tractor to compete with the 1206? Deere sidestepped that one until they came out with the 4520. I guess it took them about three years or so. After all, it took that long for IHC to discover they wern't #1 anymore with the 560 and replace it with the 806!

What tractor did IHC come out with to compete with the 5020?



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TP from Central PA

07-01-2002 11:35:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to JD70Jim, 07-01-2002 09:08:52  
That's an easy one, the IH 4300, HEHEHEHE.



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JD70Jim

07-01-2002 12:22:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to TP from Central PA, 07-01-2002 11:35:09  
It takes an INTERNATIONAL FOUR WHEEL DRIVE mostly industrial tractor to beat a 5020? You might be right! How much did that 4300 cost new? My Hotline says $25,300 vs about $14,550 for a 5020!

Say, how do you suppose that 4300 does against a WA-14 or a WA-17?



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TP from Central PA

07-01-2002 11:43:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to TP from Central PA, 07-01-2002 11:35:09  
In the 3 years between the 560 and 806, IH was probably more worried about getting their "Futuristic" Hydro-Mechanical Tranny to market in the 806 than anything else. They couldn't make it work, so they just stuck the T/A back in it.



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tubba_JD420c_ny

07-01-2002 17:40:10




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to TP from Central PA, 07-01-2002 11:43:34  
The "M" was the high point in IH's career, you can trace the aging of the "M" design with the simultaneous decline of IH's sales lead over Deere, and by the time Deere overetook IH in domestic sales in 1958, "voila" the 560. But, to IH's credit, they did put into place and publicize widely a fairly aggressive program to correct the final drive problems and make them right with the customer, and anyway, as I recall, the 560 is about 60 HP versus 80 for the 4010, so they really shouldn't even be competing head to head, but on the other hand, IH didn't have anything bigger in row crop at the time, so they had no choice but to compete their modern multi-cylinder 1958 60 HP with the 1939 final drive against the 4010. And the rest is history!
just my 2 cents.

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Dr. Evil

07-02-2002 14:57:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to tubba_JD420c_ny, 07-01-2002 17:40:10  
60 HP, 80 HP.... Even when Dad's 4010-D was turned up to 105 HP... it was still only a 4-bottom tractor like the neighbor across the road's 560!



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tubba_JD420C_ny

07-02-2002 15:56:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Dr. Evil, 07-02-2002 14:57:12  
good point, anyway their manufacturer's both positioned them as competitors in the same general class, both being the top of the row-crop line. The 4010 was a little heavier, but basically they were the same general class.



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Sam H.

06-30-2002 21:05:17




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 Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Alan H., 06-30-2002 13:17:04  
I think it is because the powershift transmission was finally ready for production. Other improvements were made also, but that was the big one.



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David Ransom

06-30-2002 21:02:02




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 Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Alan H., 06-30-2002 13:17:04  
And while we're at it, why did they quit making 630s? 50s? As? GPs?



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mike

06-30-2002 19:11:57




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 Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Alan H., 06-30-2002 13:17:04  
I have heard that the transmission may of had some troubles and it was harder to fix than the later ones. It may have been the pto and some pins that sheared and you had to pull the transmission to get to them.I haven't owned any yet so I don't know for sure.



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hardscrabble

06-30-2002 19:36:53




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 Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to mike, 06-30-2002 19:11:57  
Although I never heard it said, I'm guessing there were engine problems. Every 4010 that was ever overhauled received 4020 sleeves and pistons.



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Oh, please!!!

07-01-2002 04:54:37




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 Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to hardscrabble, 06-30-2002 19:36:53  
The blind leading the blind..... ..... .the reason that 4010's got 4020 sleeves and pistons was that Deere decided to furnish the 4020 sleeves and pistons as service parts for the 4010 tractors once the 4020 had been introduced, since they would fit, and that would reduce parts inventory problems. The 4010's had no engine problems to speak of.



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Dr. Evil

07-01-2002 09:33:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Oh, please!!!, 07-01-2002 04:54:37  
Other than the poor weep hole/O-ring design & leaky head gaskets, and the intake/exhaust ports on the same side of the head and paired exh. ports making hot spots IN the head....that were still part of the design in the 4020. That basic engine wasn't one of the Best Ever efforts by any design group.



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tubba_JD420c_ny

07-01-2002 17:49:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Dr. Evil, 07-01-2002 09:33:11  
The same basic design is still in production today. The basic foundation of an engine design is the bore-to-bore spacing in the block casting, this defines the block. And the same basic block is being made today, in the 414 CID ( 6.8 litre) engines in the 7210-7610 Ten series, as was in the 360 CID 4010 and the 404 CID 4020 block. SO the basic block design is over 40 years old, not too shabby, I'd say.
just my two cents, one for each cylinder in my Deere.

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Uh, not quite

07-01-2002 18:18:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to tubba_JD420c_ny, 07-01-2002 17:49:47  
The 6.8 litre (414) engine is not related to the 4010/4020 engine family, which is 380/404/466/496. The 6.8 is part of the the 303/329/359/414 family.



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tubba_JD420C_ny

07-02-2002 16:04:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Uh, not quite, 07-01-2002 18:18:45  
I stand corrected. I had thought the 414 grew out of the 404, but i see now that there were two different series, the first one you mention the 329/359/414/etc. is called the "300" series and the other "400" series was the growth versions of the 380/404/etc. . Still, not bad for 40 years in the block design.



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G-MAN

07-01-2002 10:12:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Dr. Evil, 07-01-2002 09:33:11  
Deere still doesn't use a cross-flow head design on a lot of their engines - including the 8.1 engine that is currently used in the new 20 series producing up to 255 PTO horsepower, and it also still uses paired exhaust valves. These engines are reliable as can be, so what's wrong with the design?



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Dr. Evil

07-01-2002 14:08:43




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to G-MAN, 07-01-2002 10:12:24  
I can't keep My Deere engine Series straight.... the New ones.... Buddy of Mine was an Engineer there in Waterloo....One of the new engines He claims has "Self Changing Engine Oil" it leaks so bad... New engines are Better, Perfect... NO, but better. And with a 4010/4020 Turbo'd to The MAX was what? 125 HP? 140 HP. Maybe 160-170 with the aftermarket oil pan/radiator, etc. etc. etc. Warner's Turbo Shop in Kewaunee, IL. used to get 140 out of a 460 International. Their 756 German diesel would run all day at 150 HP from a 94 cid smaller engine! THAT's the difference in the cross flow head & NON-siamesed exh. valves. Airflow and Heat Managment. The last NEW Deere engine block I saw the inside of DID look a LOT Better than the old 6 cyl. engines in the 4010/4020....Better oiling system, cooling system...

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G-MAN

07-01-2002 14:54:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Dr. Evil, 07-01-2002 14:08:43  
I know the cross-flow design is superior in a lot of applications. You have to remember, the 3010/4010 were JDs first shot at a multi-cylinder (more than two) diesel engine, while IH had been building multi-cylinder engines for decades. I think Deere did rather well for a first attempt. Enough so that the bore-center dimensions from those first engines (designed without the aid of computers, etc) are still used in Deere engines today. In case you're not aware (not an insult), the bore-center dimension is one of the holy of holies when a new engine design is engineered. As far as the turbocharging goes, the engines were not originally designed with turbochargers in mind, so therefore simply slapping an aftermarket turbo on them is not going to turn them into a world-beater. Look what happened when Deere got it together and started producing the Turbo-built 4520 and 4620 - night and day performance difference. You mention 140 hp 460s. How long do you think one would last at rated speed on a dyno? You could get 200 hp out of a 4010 easy, just blow some propane in it - but it won't last either. I know IH has some good engines - we have a 1086 that had 13,000 hours on it without having the head off. That was probably the greatest loss when IH went out of business, was the loss of their engines, although the Cummins are excellent engines in their own right. You should take a look at the size of the radiator on a new 8520 - probably smaller in terms of cooling capacity than a 4630, with over 100 horsepower more. The reasons? Air-to-air aftercooling and electronic fuel control. JDs original design still works pretty well. I've seen an 8400 (factory rated 235 hp/496 cubic inches) put out just over 300 hp on the dyno, with no fuel system modifications and in excess of 5000 engine hours. That's getting it done, regardless of the color of the paint. Besides that, having the intake and exhaust on the same side sure makes servicing the nozzles and lines a heck of a lot easier. My two cents.

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Dr. Evil

07-02-2002 15:17:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to G-MAN, 07-01-2002 14:54:37  
Biggest problem with changing bore-to-bore dimension is the tooling cost.... It's like starting over from scratch again! Propane in a diesel is sudden DEATH.... Thankfully IT stopped as fast as it started back in the early 60's when turbo-chargers became avail. readily. NOW these damned KIDS and their big diesel pickups, Too much $$$$ and NO BRAINS ( sorry... got a little opinionated there) brought it back into vogue again! The 4520 & 4620 were just like the 5010/5020.... big & awkward for their HP... The 4320 was almost as powerful in a package the same size as a 4020... Another reason the radiator is smaller in that new tractor You mentioned.... The alum. used in the tubes is thinner, more thermally transparent.... more tubes and fins per inch... fan is more efficient...and the whole radiator is smaller, lighter, cheaper... and is replaced NEW if it ever springs a leak... as opposed to having it repaired.... Quicker In & out from the shop with less labor and less chance of a return for a no-charge second repair. At Farmall.. We used to find the occasional 1586 that would turn 225 HP from a DT-436 Still new & tight.... but We turned them down.... 175-180 was easier to warranty...Thing that amazes ME is the fact that 30-40 yrs ago 2000-2500 hrs and it was time for a rebuild! Now if they don't last 7000-8000 hrs. We got a lemon! Reason?... Electronic engine controls...cleaner, better oils... better oil & air filters... And I always believed Smokey Eunick said it best that ENGINE's don't know what kind of Car/tractor/truck they're in! Guess You could say I'm agreeing with You.

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G-MAN

07-02-2002 18:47:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Dr. Evil, 07-02-2002 15:17:57  
I'll agree with all the points you've made except for two. First of all, you know that Mother Deere is not going to make anything "cheaper" - less value for the same money, maybe, but never cheaper. Case in point - list cost for an 8520 radiator from Deere - $820.49 - list cost from Deere for a 4840 radiator - $857.56. So they sure as heck haven't gotten much cheaper, especially considering the 4840 radiator weighs 106 lbs and the 8520 radiator weighs 32, lol. Next and last disagreement - propane. I personally wouldn't use it on a field tractor or a road truck, but I have seen it used in pulling applications with no damage. A friend of mine has an old Pete truck that he's building for the big-rig pulls. B-model Cat putting out around 600 hp on the engine, and around 850 when he blows the propane in. Man does that sucker run, but he also knows trucks backwards and forwards, enough so that I can't even really talk truck engines with him, and I went to school to learn how to wrench on them, lol. I agree that it isn't the thing for most people, but he knows how to use it and has enough common sense to keep the thing together. It's kind of neat to see how much that sucker smokes on the fuel alone, and then see all the black smoke disappear when he starts gassing it. Other than those two little items, you're talking my language, lol. I don't want you to think that I'm criticizing you or trying to start trouble, because I'm enjoying the heck out of this post. It's nice to talk to someone that can carry on a decent conversation, rather than resorting to name-calling and mud-flinging. Have a good one, Dr. Evil - and say hi to Mini-Me.

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Dr. Evil

07-03-2002 10:10:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to G-MAN, 07-02-2002 18:47:32  
You know Minnie-Me??? hehehe. He's My Son. I'll say "Hey" to Him for You tonight. I've enjoyed the heck out of this too! Your First Exception.... Yes, I stand corrected.... Deere's like Every other company in that respect.. Out to make a profit.. Same or more $$$ for less value.... Second item.... I do not agree that propane will not hurt diesel engines..But We agree again on using it long term where durability counts.. BUT, I will agree that there are some people who can use it to gain extraordinary additional HP for short periods of time in a turbo-diesel. Whether You could run propane thru a 600 HP CAT and still get it to hold together for a million miles is doubtful...BUT if You want to start the fires burning by injecting a little LP into the engine of a pulling truck/tractor or drag truck to set off the spray of diesel fuel when it happens... then Yes, You can get by for a while.... But a staged turbo would get You more HP and less damage to the engine I would think. If You don't like the smoke.... there's ALWAYS ALCOHOL! Very forgiving fuel for turbo engines. Worst fuel for turbo applications is gasoline... Even fuel injection....I think eventually, after the current series of engines has run their course... We'll have engines like the old Offenhauser engines that used to power Indy cars... The cyl. head & cylinder were one piece.... NO head gasket to fail... Modular... with no camshafts...fuel injected..variable compression ratio ..Multi-fuel capable...And a change of a chip, flip of a switch... will change from alcohol, to waste oil, to ???? for a fuel source...run on whatever We find that will burn.

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G-MAN

07-03-2002 16:32:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Dr. Evil, 07-03-2002 10:10:19  
You're right about the propane - good for short bursts of tremendous power, but long term.....not so much, lol. The guy I mentioned is planning on adding another turbo next year, providing his time and money budgets allow. I don't know if he'll still run the propane, but I wouldn't bet against it. He's basically in it for the grins, and as much as he likes wrenching trucks, I think he would enjoy the extra work if he hurt his engine. He's a little crazy when it comes to that stuff, lol. He's got his propane bottle and weights hidden behind big panels where the fifth-wheel would be, and I told him he ought to just go ahead and hang a barbecue grill on the side, as it would give him something else to burn the propane in - he just smiled. From what I've read and seen, there are some pretty amazing advances coming in internal combustion engines. I've seen articles on the variable-c.r. engines and they're pretty neat. I'm just glad I'll still have old tractors to wrench on - the new stuff can be a little bewildering at times.

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Ah, but......................

07-01-2002 09:43:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Dr. Evil, 07-01-2002 09:33:11  
I didn't say they were without fault---but, until they'd been turbocharged to within an inch of their lives, the 4010/4020 engines had a pretty good reliability record, certainly as good as anyone else, and much better than most. Yes, they should have had a crossflow head, but the other problems you mentioned were eventually taken care of. It's easy to sit here and take potshots 40+ years after the fact, but in their day, the 4010/4020 engines did quite all right.

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RickB.

06-30-2002 17:07:31




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 Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Alan H., 06-30-2002 13:17:04  
The most obvious change was in engine displacement and horsepower. Note the 3020 and 4020 were introduced at nearly the same time as IH's 706 and 806, which would outperform the 3010 and 4010. That ought to start something!



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TP from Central PA

06-30-2002 19:30:32




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 Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to RickB., 06-30-2002 17:07:31  
Then IH dropped the hammer with the 1206 Turbo :-) Sorry, I couldn't resist. But I heard they did have tranny trouble with the '10 series, it was covered up a wee bit more than IH's '60 series tranny troubles. But they got it right in the 30-4020!!!!



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Dr. Evil

07-01-2002 09:39:05




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 Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to TP from Central PA, 06-30-2002 19:30:32  
I never remember hearing about any transmission problems with the 3010/4010 with the Syncrorange. HOWEVER, I understand the PowerShift in the 3020/4020's when they were first built.... A "GOOD ONE" would last long enough to make it to the truck dock and load itself onto the truck without puking It's guts all over the dock! Truck Driver I knew well told Me the dock was covered with oil the summer of '64 until Deere got the problems solved.

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Jim

07-05-2002 05:17:15




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 3010/4010 why did they quit making them? in reply to Dr. Evil, 07-01-2002 09:39:05  
JD may have had problems with powershift tranny's in begining but after bugs were worked out it was an indestruckable trans. except for running low on oil or towing it without disconnecting it.An operater(driver)could not tear it up.I worked for a JD dealer for over 20 yrs. they were tough but expensive to repair when they wore out.If JD had not put load and depth control shaft in bottom of trans. with seals trans. would have lasted longer!

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