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4020 NOISY hydraulics

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buckeye al

05-24-2002 14:33:20




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Have some questions about a noisy 4020 hydraulic system. Looked through the archives but really didn't see much there about this noise.

I rebuilt the pump. The bearings were so loose you could bare handed feel the play after removing the worn out coupler. Outside of the loose bearings (which adjusted up just fine) & leaky seal, didn't find anything wrong with the pump but it still makes LOTS of noise but only when idle (new drive coupling too). While it's lifting something (remote or rockshaft) it is virtually silent. I suspect the noise is sroke control related. Yesterday however I noticed that this same type of noise is comming from under the dash. That made me think.... Is there any particular "thing" under the dash likely to be causing the pump to rapidly keep changing it's idle/pumping state (in & out of stroke)? Could a minor problem in the load circuit be the cause of all the racket & it only sounds like the pump is the problem? To you guys these probably sound like dumb questions but all my tractors go putt putt putt while this one belongs to my nephew. Settings were made with JD "special tools". Pressure is on the high side but is within spec limit. Never lacks for power or speed and after I rebuilt the steering unit, that too works great. Outside of the noise, the only odd thing it does is if braking, turning & lifting remote & rockshaft all at the same time, occasionally (less than one out of ten times) you may feel a slight "bump" in the steering. Like for a small fraction of a second there was no PS. I just assumed it a mommentary loss of pressure created by the full demand on all appliances.

One other little bit that makes me think it might be a load circuit type of problem is that in the winter it's nice & quiet until it warms up. Doesn't leak fluid (at least not outside), lift arms begin to rise as soon as you begin to crank the engine & they take well over a day to fall. This is a VERY early 4020. Example... the part number for the high pressure line from the pump to the dash board of a 4020 will not fit this tractor but the line from a 4010 fits perfectly. Also has O rings in the remote couplers instead of V seals. V seals leak but it is & always has been a 4020.

You guys have any suggestions as to what to do or look into next?

Thanks & have a great Memorial Day.

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Lee Smith

05-24-2002 20:14:57




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 Re: 4020 NOISY hydraulics in reply to buckeye al, 05-24-2002 14:33:20  
I had an identical problem on my 3020 and also changed the drive coupler and bushings. This helped some in quieting the noise but I found the real cause was originating from 2 other sources.
1. Replace the spring and check valve in the outline line next to the filter that feeds to the inlet of the pump. This spring and valve help to keep fluid from bleeding from the pump and reservoir when the tractor is off, (does the pump take a long time to prime up when you first crank the engine and rattle like crazy, do the lift arms jerk when they are first rising?)
2. Follow the outlet line from the pump to spool control body. (Does this line rattle or feel like it is pulsating, especailly with a load demand?) There is a valve and spring located there. The valve is most likely worn and no longer seating properly and it will certainly create a pinging noise.
After changing springs and valves it solved my problems and was inexpensive to do so.
You may also want to check the sump screen in the trans case just to be sure it not plugging.
You didn't specify your tractor's year and whether it was synchro or powershift, so these suggestions may differ to your application. I hope this may be of help to you and holler back with what you discover!

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DON

05-24-2002 17:51:54




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 Re: 4020 NOISY hydraulics in reply to buckeye al, 05-24-2002 14:33:20  
SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAVE SURGEING OIL MAKING THE PRESSURE CONTROL VALVE MOVE BACK AND FORTH. YOU PROBABLY HAVE A PISTON HANGING UP OR A LEAKING INTAKE OR EX-VALVE IN THE PUMP. A PRESSURE GAUGE WILL SHOW THIS SURGE. ALSO I GREW UP WITH THE 4010 AND NEVER HEARD OF "TIMING" THE HYD. PUMP ALTHO I AM LEARNING A LOT OF THINGS I NEVER HEARD OF IN 40 YEARS OF MAKEING A LIVEING REPAIREING THESE DEERES.DON



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G-MAN

05-24-2002 17:55:55




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 Re: Re: 4020 NOISY hydraulics in reply to DON, 05-24-2002 17:51:54  
That's fine Don, I'd never heard of it either until I did an out-of-frame overhaul on a 3020 that rattle like you wouldn't believe until I timed the hyd pump - and then it miraculously went away - must have been my imagination.



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mike

05-25-2002 04:27:53




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 Re: Re: Re: 4020 NOISY hydraulics in reply to G-MAN, 05-24-2002 17:55:55  
Is this proceedure in any manual JD orI&T ? I don't remember seeing it. I think I will try it as I have a noisy pump on a 4020 only at idle with no load,but it works fine otherwise. I don't remember the noise before I fixed the leaky pump. Is that 1 O'clock setting viewing from the pump shaft end or the front of the tractor ?



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G-MAN

05-25-2002 07:43:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 4020 NOISY hydraulics in reply to mike, 05-25-2002 04:27:53  
Mike, like I said - it is only a suggestion. I don't know where you would find this procedure in the service manual, if it's there at all. My situation involved a 3020 that I had the engine completely out of. I did nothing to the hydraulic system at all. Upon reinstalling and starting the engine, it had a definite rattle. I can't even remember who suggested timing the hyd pump, but I used that procedure I mentioned and the noise went away completely. I think it has something to do with the fact that the pump has an even number of pumping elements and the engine has an even number of cylinders. If they are in just the wrong position in relation to each other, it makes a noise. Have you ever looked at the fan on a GM pickup (older models), and noticed that the blades are not evenly spaced? I believe it is the same concept. BTW - my noise would also go away when the hydraulic pump was placed under load. The mark should be at the one o'clock position as you are looking at the shaft from behind the pump. As for those who think I'm full of it on this subject, I don't really care - it worked for me and that's good enough - I don't have the problem anymore. I would say that the mark on the pump (a small dimple) is there for a reason, and until someone can tell me what that is, I will continue to time every pump when I remove the pump coupler. It just seems like most of the hydraulic pump noise complaints I've seen on this board come after the pump has been removed for some reason. Those pumps are actually pretty simple and easy to repair - so I doubt that many people are making mistakes during reassembly - especially in case where the inlet and outlet check valves are replaced. If you're not noticing any other problems, you can try my procedure. If it works - good. If not - you're only out about 30 minutes to check it. Good luck with your tractor.

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DON

05-27-2002 14:22:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 4020 NOISY hydraulics in reply to G-MAN, 05-25-2002 07:43:19  
G-man, the only thing I can think of as to why the knock went away is you had the coupler halves so close to the pulley and drive shaft you had metel to metal contact and when you "TIMED " it you got them positioned so they wouldn't hit. The only reason those markes are there is they are the centers for the machinest so he can cut the cam into the shaft. I stand by my first follow up. Don



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G-MAN

05-27-2002 21:37:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 4020 NOISY hydraulics in reply to DON, 05-27-2002 14:22:39  
Don, your explanation almost holds water until you get to a certain point. Don't the coupler halves, drive shaft and pulley rotate at the same speed, since they're all bolted together? Maybe I'm missing something here, but I would think it would be hard to achieve "metal-to-metal" contact between parts that are all moving together. And isn't it really hard to get the coupler halves too close to the pulley or driveshaft considering the only things the halves contact is the rubber bushings, which are mounted on bolts screwed into the driveshaft and pulley? Please further enlighten me on your thoughts about these questions. I had installed quite a few hyd pump couplers before the 3020 I had problems with, and as far as I know, they're pretty much foolproof, so I really doubt that your theory is correct. I still stand behind my theory - because I know the coupler wasn't incorrect, unless the JD service manual is wrong and my torque wrench is that far off, because I always torque hydraulic coupler hardware to spec.

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DON

05-28-2002 06:58:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 4020 NOISY hydraulics in reply to G-MAN, 05-27-2002 21:37:17  
G-man , I dont mean to be difficult but the reason Deere put those bushings in there is because the drive shaft and pulleys dont line up perfectly due to machineing tollerances, if they did you wouldnt need the flex joint. You can have the couplers too close to the pulley lugs and when the coupler flexes it will rub the pully. I agree this doesn't happen very often but it can happen.Don



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HTR

05-25-2002 19:31:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 4020 NOISY hydraulics in reply to G-MAN, 05-25-2002 07:43:19  
The two dimples in the end, of the shaft, are machine lathe centers. The one in the center of the shaft is for machining the straight portiion of the shaft. The offset dimple is the center, of the cam lobe portion, of the shaft. The travel, of the offset dimple, in 180 degrees, is the stroke of the pump. I have never heard of timing these pumps, but if it worked for you, it is hard to argue with success.

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mike

05-27-2002 05:54:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 4020 NOISY hydraulics in reply to HTR, 05-25-2002 19:31:08  
Like you said I'm only out my time.And I don't
see how it can hurt so i'll try it and maybe it can help. If I get ambitious maybe I can give an up date later.



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G-MAN

05-24-2002 15:43:06




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 Re: 4020 NOISY hydraulics in reply to buckeye al, 05-24-2002 14:33:20  
I suggested this to a guy awhile back on here, but never heard if that was the problem. Did you time the pump when you reinstalled it? There is a proper way for the pump to be timed to the engine, and if it isn't that way, it can make a noise like you describe. There should be a small dot on the end of the pump drive shaft. Position that dot at the one o'clock position, and set the engine at TDC for #1 cylinder - doesn't matter if it's on exhaust or compression. Install the coupling with the pump in that position. It may sound crazy, but I've heard tractors with viscious pump noise cured by this procedure - it's usually right after the pump has been out. The vibrations of the engine and the pump set up a harmonic and cause a vibration. The reason you may hear the noise up in the dash is because there is no attenuator in the system and the noise will travel right through all those steel lines. I'm not guaranteeing that this is your problem, but it's the first thing I'd check - post back with the cause once you find it.

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Ken

05-26-2002 20:08:05




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 Re: Re: 4020 NOISY hydraulics in reply to G-MAN, 05-24-2002 15:43:06  
Would this work on a 3010 also??



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G-MAN

05-27-2002 11:37:15




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 Re: Re: Re: 4020 NOISY hydraulics in reply to Ken , 05-26-2002 20:08:05  
Yes, it probably would. Like I said in one of my earlier posts - I have seen that problem more often in the 4 cylinder tractors. Probably because the 4 is a little rougher running engine anyway and has more vibration to begin with, even with the balancer assembly. I've never heard back from anyone I suggested this to, so I don't know if it has worked for anyone else. I'm just going off of personal experience.

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