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Clutch Noise 41B

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Dan 41 B

03-14-2002 12:56:51




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I've just changed the roller bearing in the clutch and put in new clutch plates and I still have a noise when the clutch is engaged. It sounds like a whinning noise and it makes it when the tractor is moving. Need help, I know that it would be a bearing somewhere, but where! Please help.
Thanks Dan




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WTW

03-14-2002 13:15:44




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 Re: Clutch Noise 41B in reply to Dan 41 B, 03-14-2002 12:56:51  
Dan, If you haven't already checked the first reduction bearing in the reduction cover is where I would start. That is the cap right behind the clutch pulley on the side of the reduction cover. The cap is held on with two 5/16" bolts ( 1/2" wrench). The only lube this bearing gets is when this cover is removed and ball bearing is packed with grease. It is a very commonly over looked area of service. This bearing is turning anytime the clutch pulley is turning as it carries the right hand end of the reduction gear shaft that is in constant mesh with the clutch pulley gear. Don't be surprised if you find that the bearing has run dry and is shot along with reduction cover damage from the bearing spinning inside it. What happens when this bearing fails it also allows gear alignment to get out and you get the wine or gear noise that you may be hearing. Check it out and see what you find. Good Luck, Dave W.

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KEG

03-14-2002 13:53:39




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 Re: Re: Clutch Noise 41B in reply to WTW, 03-14-2002 13:15:44  
Dave,
You mentioned that the bearing is always turning when the clutch pulley is turning. When idling, is it better to leave the clutch engaged or disengaged? Which choice is the least wear and tear on the parts?

Thanks,
KEG



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WTW

03-14-2002 14:35:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Clutch Noise 41B in reply to KEG, 03-14-2002 13:53:39  
Keg, Its kind of a toss up. The old rule of thumb was to engage the clutch to keep the clutch bearing inside the pulley from running all the time. But as you pointed out the transmission bearing is then running. I try to always engage the clutch when the tractors are idling. Saves wear and heat on the clutch disk / plates and I know when I get off it the tractor is not left in gear.



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Frank-in-Tallahassee

03-14-2002 15:08:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Clutch Noise 41B in reply to WTW, 03-14-2002 14:35:24  
In the really old days, the mechanics would tell you to keep the clutch engaged whenever possible to minimize crankshaft side-slap.

They really emphasized it when the 2 cylinder diesels came out.

Frank-in-Tallahassee
70D // 855



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WTW

03-15-2002 06:24:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Clutch Noise 41B in reply to Frank-in-Tallahassee, 03-14-2002 15:08:19  
Frank, Sorry (no offense) but I don't buy that theory. The only time the clutch will effect the end play clearance on the crank is momentarily when you are either engaging or disengaging the clutch. As stated the clutch is an over center type and once engaged it has no effect on the and play of the crank. The only exception to this is people that lean on the clutch lever or ride there foot on it thinking that they are making the clutch tighter which is another fools mistake as all they are doing is wearing out the clutch fork and collar. You will see the actual end play of the crank shaft as it will move when engaging and disengage the clutch as the crank will move side to side the distance the clearance is se at the flywheel end. It is a good way to see what your crank endplay is. The crank shaft is free to move side to side weather the clutch is in or out once engaged or disengaged. Hope I didn't confuse the issue more. Dave W.

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Frank-in-Tallahassee

03-15-2002 07:04:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Clutch Noise 41B in reply to WTW, 03-15-2002 06:24:26  
Dave:

Oh, I see the light now, and I'll admit that I was having trouble following it. I still think they sound like they're hammering louder when the clutch is disengaged, but like I said below, maybe that's because of the clutch guts rattling.

Heck, I've been wrong before, but I still think I'll let the clutch engaged when it's not in gear, if nothing else to save the pulley bearing, right ? And, I think it sounds smoother and quieter.

I need all the help I can get on quieting down that old diesel !

But honest, I heard it from two different JD mechanics.

Frank-in-Tallahassee
70D // 855

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WTW

03-15-2002 08:25:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Clutch Noise 41B in reply to Frank-in-Tallahassee, 03-15-2002 07:04:02  
Frank, You are also right about the noise on the two cylinder diesels. When disengaged the drag from the driver plates to the disk to the pulley plates get to clacking from the two cylinder pulses and they really do clatter. This noise is coming from the floating drive plates where they are splined onto the fixed driver hub drive gear. As they wear they get that much looser and noisier. When engaging the clutch, all these individual loose and rattling parts are clamped together making it one tight rotating assemble to the crankshaft. It is a good thing to engage the clutch even more so on the diesel tractors as the slapping and clacking noise you are hearing is beating the life out of the driver splines and disk. That is this John Deere mechanics opinion. Dave W.

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F-i-T

03-15-2002 08:37:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Clutch Noise 41B in reply to WTW, 03-15-2002 08:25:57  
Dave:

Now that really makes a lot of sense to me. I'll be that's the noise I'm hearing. And the fact that the splines of the floaters are taking a beating against the driven plate splines is a lot of wear that can be avoided.

Thanks !

F-I-T



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Arden K.

03-14-2002 18:28:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Clutch Noise 41B in reply to Frank-in-Tallahassee, 03-14-2002 15:08:19  
I guess I don't understand how an engaged clutch can have an effect on crankshaft side movement. That sounds like one of those old farmers tales.



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Frank-in-Tallahassee

03-14-2002 19:19:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Clutch Noise 41B in reply to Arden K., 03-14-2002 18:28:12  
Well...

The fixed position clutch drive disc is solid on the crank. The flywheel is set to a gap from the slinger, thrust washer, or main bearing, depending on the model (early, late, numbered, or diesel) to set the overall endplay.

When you engage the clutch, the fork pulls the collar, then the clutch bolts and then outer plate, towards the crankcase from the right, in effect pushing the crank towards the flywheel side. The pinch that results from the inner and outer clutch plates and disks under pressure traps the fixed disk and locates the crank, preventing lateral movement, so the crank does not move from side to side while the clutch is engaged.

To demonstrate, with engine off, engage the clutch, and rock the lever back and forth, but not so far to the rear as to disengage. The movement you 'll see as you almost override the clutch pack is end play in the crank. It's particulary devastating to the fiber thrust washers on the diesels.

I guarantee you will hear it hammer a different tune if you let the tractor run for a time with the clutch disengaged (like on a blower or pto dryer).

It will affect crankshaft end movement on a conventional drivetrain, too. A conventional clutch is a normally engaged design. If you hold the clutch down on a car, the crank will float in and out, but generally the throw-out bearing will give way before the crankshaft thrust wears too much.

Endplay notwithstanding, I always felt that since the pulley roller bearing which must rely on just it's packed grease for lubrication, had a better chance of failing from over use than the first reduction gear brearing which gets fresh lube when the tractor moves. It's kind of a pick your poison, but I've had to replace more pulley bearings than first reduction gear quill bearings.

Old farmer's tale or not, I only disengage the clutch to shift gears.

Frank-in-Tallahassee
70D // 855

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Arden K.

03-15-2002 02:45:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Clutch Noise 41B in reply to Frank-in-Tallahassee, 03-14-2002 19:19:02  
Well buddy your clutch theroy sounds good right up to the point of "the fork pulls the collar, then the clutch bolts and then outer plate, towards the crankcase from the right, in effect pushing the crank towards the flywheel side. The pinch that results from the inner and outer clutch plates and disks under pressure traps the fixed disk and locates the crank" /// you will find that the clutch drum moves from side to side with the crank whaether it is engaged or not/ go snap your clutch in and move the flywheel. The clutch on a 2cylinder is a overcenter type and once snaped in has no pressure from the fork or collar pushing against the crank. When the clutch is engaged the collar pushes the crank AWAY from the flywheel side not towards it and ones engaged puts NO pressure on the crank in either direction. Go engage your clutch and now move the flywheel side to side and you will see the end play is the same. The reason the sound changes with a belt load is the belt is pulling the crank forward and when the piston pushes on the rod and the crank the crank is moved to the rear causing a bearing thunk. Still sounds like an old farmers tale to me.

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Frank-in-Tallahassee

03-15-2002 06:20:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Clutch Noise 41B in reply to Arden K., 03-15-2002 02:45:23  
Arden:

I read your explanation, and I think you're right !

Sorry to reprint your words, but I do have couple of questions and comments so I can understand this completely.

You said:

"you will find that the clutch drum moves from side to side with the crank whaether it is engaged or not..."

What causes this ? Is it just the drag of the pulley bearing on the crank ?

...The clutch on a 2cylinder is a overcenter type and once snaped in has no pressure from the fork or collar pushing against the crank....
Does being an over-center type determine that there is no side thrust, or is it the fact that there is a facing on either side of the fixed disk ?

...When the clutch is engaged the collar pushes the crank AWAY from the flywheel side not towards it and ones engaged puts NO pressure on the crank in either direction. Go engage your clutch and now move the flywheel side to side and you will see the end play is the same...

This is where I had a problem following it at first, but I think you're right. Maybe because there is a bigger mass, it kind of slows down the float side-ways. It surely sounds different. Maybe that's caused by the loose clutch parts rattling around.

...The reason the sound changes with a belt load is the belt is pulling the crank forward and when the piston pushes on the rod and the crank the crank is moved to the rear causing a bearing thunk...

I was speaking of having it on a pto load. It definately sounds like it is hammering (even more so) than when the clutch is engaged.

...Still sounds like an old farmers tale to me...

I honestly heard this from the service manager of our old dealer, and later on from a JD trained mechanic who opened his own shop in our area. Now maybe they were saying to minimize end-play, but were also meaning that it would minimize puley bearing wear.

Thanks for straightening me out. I still think I'll let the clutch engaged when not in gear, because it will save the pulley bearing, it sounds better to me.

Frank-in-Tallahassee

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Arden K.

03-15-2002 17:46:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Clutch Noise 41B in reply to Frank-in-Tallahassee, 03-15-2002 06:20:14  
Frank;

The clutch pulley moves with the crank when engaged due to being clamped tight to the drive disk and kind of floats with the carnk when disengaged. it can still be moved some independent of the crank when disengaged///an overcenter type JD clutch remains engaged due to the fact the togles go over center and once snapped over center will remain there until snaped back to the disengaged position. An overcenter Jd clutch can be fully engaged with screw drivers while the clutch is on the bench with out even a fork to move the collar as long as all the parts including the driven disc are in it and the clutch is adjusted. If the clutch were on the tractor the clutch could be engaged with the lever and fork then the fork could be removed from the tractor and it would still drive the tractor like the fork was stil there but you couldn't disengage it to stop without the fork///There is no doubt that the clutch being engaged helps the noise problem and could even smooth out the powewr pulses and surly helps the pto to run smoother due to more mass coupled to the crankshaft but the point I was trying to make was the clutch being engaged doesn't do anything for the sideways movement of the crankshft and once snaped in acts like a flywheel that has little effect on sideways movement of the crank///Leaving the clutch engaged when the tractor is running is a good idea because it does lesen the wear on the bearing bushing and clutch plates.

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Ken Talatzko

03-15-2002 08:45:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Clutch Noise 41B in reply to Frank-in-Tallahassee, 03-15-2002 06:20:14  
Frank,
Engaging the clutch while the tractor is idling out of gear not only saves wear on the clutch bearing, but also saves wear on the inner clutch bushing. One especially needs to be careful when belted up to something with a running tractor and disengaged clutch. That condition really makes the clutch bearing and bushing work and heat up. Ken



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F-i-T

03-15-2002 08:57:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Clutch Noise 41B in reply to Ken Talatzko, 03-15-2002 08:45:56  
Ken:

See, that's a good point, too.

So, it seems that the general consensus is that, given a choice, it's probably better to keep the clutch engaged, because while you will be spinning the first reduction gear quill bearing, you won't be putting extra wear and tear on the clutch pulley bearing, bushing, and floater and drive disk splines.

I learned alot out of this discussion.

F-I-T



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