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4020 puzzle

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Lloyd Stricklan

11-17-2001 15:57:26




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I just rebuilt my old model 4020. New sleeves and pistons, rods checked and rebuilt if needed, crankshaft checked standard, new bearings,new cam and lifters, new valves and springs, all John Deere parts. Tractor cranked easy and runs good. Dealer advised to breakin pulling a good load. Today I hooked up a harrow and went to the field. Tractor sounded great and pulled good. After about 5 minutes the engine loaded up and locked down. I did not try to start it back but pulled it back to the shop and dropped the pan. Pulled no. 1 and 2 main caps and found minor scratches, but no heat signs. Engine was free at this point. No. 1 rod seemed a little tight so we pulled it but found no damage. Reinsalled caps and spun engine with starter. Sounded fine. Replaced pan, started engine and checked oil pressure. Pressure was good. The hydralic pump was noisy when we started the engine and had weak hydralics. Could the pump have frozen and stalled the engine and then freed back up? Does anyone have any thougths on this? I am not going to start it back up untill I figure out what Happened.

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G Taylor cold seizing

11-18-2001 19:47:24




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 Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Lloyd Strickland, 11-17-2001 15:57:26  
Could be cold seizing, we see snowmobiles with new liquid cooled machines walking a mile or two back their truck & trailer all the time. They jump on cold machine & take off full blast down the trail. Then the thermostat snaps open & lets a slug of ice cold coolant into the water jackets.Hot expanded pistons, cold contracted cylinder walls and then a screeching $$$ halt. Operate any machine at a modest load until warmed up, then load it down.

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Bob Weber

11-18-2001 13:54:43




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 Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Lloyd Strickland, 11-17-2001 15:57:26  
Lloyd, I've got to agree with the group advocating too little piston/cylinder or ring gap clearance. What you've described is a pretty classic symptom. They run great until you load them up, and the additional heat closes up the clearances until things get too tight to move. Hopefully not too much damage done at this point, good thing you've been careful with it.



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john nelson

11-18-2001 10:06:40




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 Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Lloyd Strickland, 11-17-2001 15:57:26  
whitout being familar with that engine, i cant ever remember a diesel engine loading up enough to stall without a lot of black smoke, i suspect some fuel problem?
John



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Bill from up north

11-18-2001 08:06:48




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 Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Lloyd Strickland, 11-17-2001 15:57:26  
I have rebuilt hundreds of engines. I have seen pistons and rings that were too big for the sleeves,brgs that were boxed wrong ,sleeve and piston assemblies that were factory assembled(you're just supposed to pull the piston far enough out the bottom to get the pin out to put the rod on and the install as a unit) -that had all the rings lined up and I"ve had machine shops under bore cylinders . I don"t trust anything any more, so I double check all clearances before and during installation. MY bet is you got a piston skirt clearance and or ring endgap problem. THe first time I had that happen was on a 97 or 95 Massey (G6 MM) I pulled the pistons out and honed out the cyl about .002 in.-the machine shop had under bored the clys.So I shined up the pistons and it ran for years after. I've only done one 4020 and everything came out of the box fine for it,except for a little camshaft problem. Good luck-- hope I'm wrong!!

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ET

11-18-2001 07:01:47




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 Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Lloyd Strickland, 11-17-2001 15:57:26  
In the time I spent working at a john deere dealer
i saw this problem and heard it was not uncomon with brand new side consol 4020's. The piston expanded to fast with the heat of the engine load and siesed to the cylinder wall and created what we called a 4 corner score on the piston. When the engine cooled the piston shrank and freed itself. Drop the pan and shine a light on the lower end of the sleeves turn the engine so the piston goes to the top of the cylinder your looking at you will see some scoffing and alumminum on the bad cylinder wall. This piston scuffing may not have stuck the rings if it was'nt a hard siesure. I have seen engines run like this for years without much problem. The best thing is to change the sleeve and piston on the bad cyilinder because cracks in the piston can develop from the scuffing.

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Lloyd Strickland

11-18-2001 09:55:14




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 Re: Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to ET, 11-18-2001 07:01:47  
I remember this happening to a neighbor`s new 4020 in the early 70`s. Thanks for the reminder. Lloyd



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Lloyd Strickland

11-18-2001 09:54:55




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 Re: Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to ET, 11-18-2001 07:01:47  
I remember this happening to a neighbor`s new 4020 in the early 70`s. Thanks for the reminder. Lloyd



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Wendell,MN

11-18-2001 00:55:35




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 Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Lloyd Strickland, 11-17-2001 15:57:26  
It sounds like the injector pump loading up as in pluged return line, or maybe the pump not getting enough feul as in plugged filters. I also wonder what the motor oil looked like.



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Lloyd Strickland

11-18-2001 08:32:30




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 Re: Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Wendell,MN, 11-18-2001 00:55:35  
The fuel filters were new. The John Deere break-in oil had turned darker than I thought it should have after only 30 minutes running in a completely clean engine. I will check the fuel return line. Thanks Lloyd



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Jim

11-17-2001 22:07:35




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 Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Lloyd Strickland, 11-17-2001 15:57:26  
What did you put on the o-rings when you put the sleeves in?



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Lloyd Strickland

11-18-2001 08:44:26




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 Re: Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Jim, 11-17-2001 22:07:35  
I had a retired mechanic helping with the assembly. He wirebrushed the grooves and ran sandpaper in them to be sure they were completly clean. He told me what he was going to use, but I can`t remember if it was motor oil or soap. I have used liquid soap on past rebuilds. The bottom edge of one lower groove was broken out in a small place from an earlier rebuild. We placed an extra o-ring in the middle groove that is not usually used. Also used a light to look at the bottom ring after installing the sleeve. It looked fine. Thanks Lloyd

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Don

11-20-2001 14:48:38




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 Re: Re: Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Lloyd Strickland, 11-18-2001 08:44:26  
if he used oil on those o-rings there's your problem. oil will make the o-rings swell and cause the pistons to score( 4 corner scoreing)



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Bob W

11-17-2001 19:22:45




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 Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Lloyd Strickland, 11-17-2001 15:57:26  
I am scratching my head on this one but would offer these comments: if you removed a rod cap and reinstalled it,replace the rod bolts,they are only good to be torqued once. Its not much money to spend to possibly save your block, also I believe your dealer broke the engine in properly--after a rebuild we warm them up and put them to work gradually over an hour to rated speed for about a half hour.

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Lloyd Strickland

11-18-2001 08:56:09




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 Re: Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Bob W, 11-17-2001 19:22:45  
We replaced all bolts in rebuild, but I did not replace the ones on the cap we removed. Probably a good idea to do so. The engine had run about 30 minutes before I applied load, but was not up to operating temperture. Our ground was dry and hard, so the harrow did not apply much load, no black smoke. I did apply the brakes one time for a few seconds to see if it would lug, and it did. It was only half way to normal temp when it seized. Thanks Lloyd

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John Mann

11-17-2001 19:14:43




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 Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Lloyd Strickland, 11-17-2001 15:57:26  
After reading other posts, I would wonder if the thrust on crank is ok, I have seen many ford engines that are solid bore want to seize in the early starting periods. Anyway if the machine were mine witch it is not breakin period would be at full throttle 80% load. I have built many engines and find that any that are babied never seat the rings etc accordingly, I would have to argue that the components have flaws like ridges in them that may cause a locking problem. These things are hard to nail sometime could even be as simple as a belt to tight. I have just finished rebuilding an engine that made no power , figured out that new battery cables had the kill pull held back about 1/3 of the way. Plasti gage is a good idea , generally you don't get bad products for engines. If you start it again run it 1/3 throttle noload feel of the block for warmer spots this could indicate localized problems, ccould be as simple as a malfunctioned hyraulic vavle dead headed and stalled a tight engine. Good luck JMann

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Lloyd Strickland

11-18-2001 09:06:07




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 Re: Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to John Mann, 11-17-2001 19:14:43  
We checked the thurst bearing and it looked fine from the bottom. Used a pry bar to move shaft back and forth. End play seemed fine. I think our breakin followed your lines. Ran at 2200 rpms pulling a harrow, But not loaded enough to boil black smoke. Thanks Lloyd



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HTR

11-17-2001 19:01:16




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 Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Lloyd Strickland, 11-17-2001 15:57:26  
You didn't say what year 4020, but pre 69 4020 main bearings are not fool proof on the thrust main bearing. All of the bearings except the thrust bearing have oil holes in both half of the bearings. It is not hard to get the bottom half of the bearing in the top, thus bocking the oil flow to this bearing. I have seen this done more than once. They will usually run about 10 hours with the hole blocked before they seize and spin in the block. 69 and up 4020 block tangs are off set so they cant be installed wrong. I do agree with breaking them under a pretty good load, after about 10 minutes slow idle, 10 minutes fast idle, one hour one half load, and then sock it to it.

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Lloyd Strickland

11-18-2001 09:14:14




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 Re: Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to HTR, 11-17-2001 19:01:16  
It`s a round muffler model and I think 1968 year. I think the instruction paper in the kit told of this problem and I think we checked, but can`t guaruntee it. Might be worth double checking. Thanks Lloyd



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Mike

11-17-2001 18:49:01




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 Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Lloyd Strickland, 11-17-2001 15:57:26  
If everything rotated freely and you have good oil pressure, the rotating assembly (rods, crank, pistons, etc.) should be fine. I seriously doubt you stuck piston rings. They would break before they would sieze and stop the engine from rotating. How about the injection pump? Are you sure the noise you heard wasn;t from the pump? The pump could have taken a dump. Any more info about how it stopped running? Kind of hard to diagnose. Your Deere dealer did tell you correctly to load the engine while breaking it in. I work at the John Deere Dubuque Engine Factory and we run EVERY engine for a 3 1/2 minute test, INCLUDING FLRS (full load rated speed). Deere does not tell the customers to 'baby' the engine or tractor when it's new. After all, most people that buy a tractor start using it right away.

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Lloyd Strickland

11-18-2001 09:31:31




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 Re: Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Mike, 11-17-2001 18:49:01  
We assumed good oil pressure by the flow at the rocker assembly. After siezure and ckecking bottom end, we removed a plug on the side of the engine and had great flow when restarted. When it quit, it was sounding great and pulling good. All of a sudden it loaded up and started dieing. I don`t remember lots of black smoke. I killed it before it pulled all the way down. Did not try restart then. I have been on 4020`s on several occasions when the pump quit. It`s just like turning off the key. This one lugged down. After checking when we restarted, it fired right up. Apparently no interurption in fuel flow. We did find a pea sized piece of metal in the oil pan that was polished on one side. It looks like a chip off a gear tooth. But no clicking sound when running. Any ideas on this. Thanks Lloyd

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zane

11-17-2001 17:49:12




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 Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Lloyd Strickland, 11-17-2001 15:57:26  
I doubt that the hydraulic pump is involved. The coupling would probably have yielded before stalling the engine. Too much of a co-incident anyway.

My guess is that one or more pistons seized against the cylinder sleeves after being rapidly heated. They then relaxed after cooling.

I'd like to hear the dealer's rationale for advising you to give your engine a "Good load" breakin. I think that was ill-advised. I'd start the engine and let it slow idle for an hour or so while watching the vital signs and remaining alert for sounds of laboring. Then gradually increase idle speed to about 1250 over another hour. Let it set there for another hour. Then work it lightly for a day or two.

Poorly mated (new) rubbing surfaces always have more microscopic peaks and valleys. These generate enormous localized pressure and heat--together with marginalized heat dissipation. Heavy loading aggravates these problems. After the two surfaces "mate", they are much smoother relative to each other. Lubricants are more effective at keeping them separated by a continuous film. They are then more capable of dealing with a "good load" without being damaged.

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Lloyd Strickland

11-18-2001 09:36:30




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 Re: Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to zane, 11-17-2001 17:49:12  
That was my thinking on the pump. I figured the coupling would give or trash the pump. Hydralics were the same after restarting. Thanks Lloyd



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Russ

11-17-2001 17:30:00




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 Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Lloyd Strickland, 11-17-2001 15:57:26  
Did you plastigage the rod caps and main caps prior to final installiation? From what I have seen ,when a hyd pump locks up it will shear the drive coupler screws in the hyd pump drive shaft before it will kill an engine. I would have recommend measuring oil clearence on all rod and main caps before reassembly. I guess you need to step back and ask your self why you overhauled the engine to begin with.
Did it burn oil or if it spun a rod or something, did all the oil passages get cleaned?

Don't know what else to check but I'd keep an eye on it if you pull it again without finding the cause of the problem

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Lloyd Strickland

11-18-2001 13:02:44




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 Re: Re: 4020 puzzle in reply to Russ, 11-17-2001 17:30:00  
We did not use plastigage. The crankshaft was checked and measured standard. Upon assemley the engine turned freely. After shutdown one rod seemed tight. We removed the cap and found no damage. After re-installing cap engine still turned freely. This tractor is used mainly in one crop, tobacco. Between layby and harvest it sat idle for about a month. When we got it to hook up the stripper for harvest all the coolant was in the oilpan. Upon teardown we found a cavitated sleeve. It did run extremly hot at this time because my employee`s did not check the radiator before starting. Thanks Lloyd

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