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JD 60 Flywheel

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Gary

12-22-2000 10:00:00




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Have been working for a while now trying to get the rattle and banging noise in the clutch pulley to quiet down. Checked the flwheel several times and it "seemed" tight. Finally decided to put a wrench and a long cheater bar on the bolts and got each one to move maybe 1/16", just barely enough that I could feel them move. The clutch pulley is now completely quiet. For some reason even a slight bump on the flywheel side resonates out the pulley side.

The bolts holding the flywheel on are square headed and course thread. Is there a source for these bolts with a fine thread? Should be able to torque up the fine threads more. Would there be anything wrong with using longer bolts and double nuts or would this be too much unbalance for the flywheel.

When the engine is running and you sight along the edge of the flwheel should the flywheel appear to run completely true? Mine has a very slight barely noticeable wobble but you can see it.

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buckeye al

12-24-2000 10:47:27




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 Re: JD 60 Flywheel in reply to Gary, 12-22-2000 10:00:00  
I twice tore the clutch side of my 70D apart to the main case looking for the source of that confounded hammering before I discovered it was the flywheel! Thought I'd tighten the bolts to see if I could stop the noise. Twisted the drive lug right off of my Proto 1/2" breaker bar (no cheater either). Got the Craftsman breaker bar out of the tool box. Tightened it as tight as I could without a cheater. Uh oh! What was that sharp snap sound? Oh look! A nice new CRACK through one of the flywheel bolt bosses. GRRRR. Anyway, it had not been hammering long & the crank was barely bruised. A taper lock flywheel fixed us right up. This all happened back 'bout 82 or 83. That loose flywheel sound sure is pronounced in the pulley side isn't it?

Good luck.

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G Taylor

12-25-2000 18:44:32




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 Re: Re: JD 60 Flywheel in reply to buckeye al, 12-24-2000 10:47:27  
If the crank & flywheel splines are moderately worn no amount of overtorquing is going to compensate for long. Taperlock time. Flywheels on 70D,702D,730D's etc were to be torqued to 208 ft lbs with coarse bolts. Your's I don't have a manual on. Past that alot of the energy from over torquing goes into thread friction instead of streching metal. If overtorquing the metal until the yield point is reached then it will crack & break. Worn splines are from failing to regularly check flywheel torque WITH a torque wrench. Any torquing without one is a short cut to trouble. Another cause is prolonged operation at below full rated RPM with govenors wide open.

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Gary

12-26-2000 06:00:46




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 Re: Re: Re: JD 60 Flywheel in reply to G Taylor , 12-25-2000 18:44:32  
My service manual SM-2008 says "tighten clamping bolts evenly an securely" with no torque specified that I can find. I have always heard that tightening the flywheel and keeping it tight is the best way to avoid trouble. My idea was to tighten the bolts a little bit each time until they hold and that the fine threads would be less likely to work loose. It seems to me that the bolts would either have to stretch or otherwise work loose before any more wear would occur on the splines. The bolts seemed tight before but I did not check with a torque wrench and just a little tug on them with a cheater caused the noise in the clutch to disappear. I have only had the tractor a month and have not removed the flywheel yet to look at the splines. I agree that a taperlock flywheel is the best fix and it is probably time to start looking around for one.

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G Taylor mystery torque for 60/620/630 flywheel ?

12-26-2000 07:37:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 60 Flywheel in reply to Gary, 12-26-2000 06:00:46  
It must have been such a commonly know fact that nobody had to write it down? Went all through my 620 info and no number's found? Until some old pro can come up with the numbers from the factory in hand, the better than nothing numbers from a 70D can't be to far wrong at 208ft lbs. Seen a flange tightening demo in the lab,that was an education. The rig measured & indicated the thrust on all eight bolts simultaneously. Attempts were made with & without torque wrenches, fine thread,coarse thread,dry, various kinds of lube, different gaskets,metal to metal etc. Unless a torque wrench is used, fresh unstreched/ non work harened bolts of the proper rating & lube that the bolt threads didn't squeeze out & proper technique the results were dismal.

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Gary

12-26-2000 08:43:49




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 60 Flywheel in reply to G Taylor mystery torque for 60/620/630 flywheel ?, 12-26-2000 07:37:19  
The proper torque for a JD 60 flywheel might be a good question to ask the Two Cylinder or Green Magazines.

I think I will try a new set of course bolts, nuts, and lock washers from John Deere. The nuts on my flwheel are significantly nicked from somebody using a 12 pt. socket instead of a 6. My torque wrench is 1/2" drive and is only scaled to 150 ft. lbs.

Many attempts have been made at work to specify the proper torque for flange bolts. Contractors pretty much wont use a torque wrench unless forced to because they dont like to be called back to tighten leaking flanges. They prefer hammer wrenches and no lube on either the bolt or the nut. We tried some teflon coated bolts once and they could be easily tightened to a specified torque but would work loose. Carbon steel bolts in the same flange tightened with no lube would not. Now how much of the actual torque is tightening the bolt and how much is drag on the nut face and the threads is an open question.

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clooney

12-26-2000 13:07:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 60 Flywheel in reply to Gary, 12-26-2000 08:43:49  
Gary,I believe those bolts are 3/4"-10 x 5". I have no idea what the grade is but would guess grade 5. There aren't many torque specs on those old J.D.'s except head bolt torque's. Prior to the numbered series with hand start flywheels even if the flywheel torque specs were given there was no way to get a straight shot at the flywheel bolts & any use of a universal or offset wrench would require an offset factor of the torque values anyway. If those bolts are grade 5 then a good torque spec would be 200' lbs lubed or 260' lbs dry. You can go to grade 8 bolts 3/4-10 X 5" & up the clampload some buy torquing to 280'lbs lubed or 380'lbs dry (you will have to hold the bolt heads while tightening). Don't try to check the torque on a bolt or nut (that has been lubed then originally torqued) at a later time because as the lube deteriorates it will take more torque to move the bolt or nut than it did to originally torque it. I personally don't use a torque wrench on those big flywheel bolts as I have a good feel for how the bolt is tightening & I don't trust a torque wrench on used old bolts & nuts especially using an extension (all it takes is a little hang up & you think you have the correct torque, but don't) . I use a 3/4" drive socket with a 3/4" drive extension & a 3' cheater pipe on the breaker bar. I evenly tighten them up a little at a time until they are about as tight as I can get them with that 3' pipe, then usually re-tighten them after a day or two of running, then re-check after a day of hard use then never worry about them again. If you are using a 1/2" drive set up you will never get those bolts tight enough because of the torsional wind up of the extension & the chance of breaking a socket & hurting yourself. I have never had one come loose or broken a flywheel (that I know of) by using this method.

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Gary

12-26-2000 13:41:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 60 Flywheel in reply to clooney, 12-26-2000 13:07:11  
Thanks for the information. The parts book lists the bolts as 3/4" x 5" "high strength" but not the grade. There are plenty of grade 5 or grade 8 bolts around but none I have found are square headed.

My torque wrench is 1/2" but I have a 3/4" drive ratchet and T-bar and a 3 ft. cheater pipe I can use. It is what I used already but just bumped it a little until I knew for sure it moved for fear of cracking the flywheel. The little bit of tightening I did fixed the sound in the clutch and that is what I wanted. I have found a 6 pt. socket to be better than a combination wrench or 12 pt. socket because these bite into the sides of the nuts. I will keep the flywheel cover off for a while and check the bolts regularly and see what happens. I can use the sound of the clutch as an indication that the bolts need checking again. So far after about 2 hrs of running the clutch is very quiet.

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clooney

12-26-2000 14:40:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 60 Flywheel in reply to Gary, 12-26-2000 13:41:36  
Gary, you can tighten those nuts down pretty tight. There is a lot of meat around the bolt area. I personally don't believe those nuts come loose on the flywheel bolts, my belief is they aren't tightened enough to begin with & the flywheel starts to work on the crank splines then the loosness appears from flywheel to crank loss of clamp load. I have never seen a flywheel come loose on a gas J.D. 2 cylinder that was in good condition & properly tightened to begin with. I have seen some come loose on diesels but don't know the history of the tractors so I can't judge if they were properly tightened or not.

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Gary

12-26-2000 15:03:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 60 Flywheel in reply to clooney, 12-26-2000 14:40:38  
That is good to know. I will try to tighten them good the first time and periodically check them in the hope they stay tight and the clutch stays quiet.

I will need to put a new starter ring gear on the flywheel so the flywheel has to come off and get tightened up one more time. At that time I will take a good close look at the splines both on the crank and in the flywheel.

Thanks for the help.

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Mike Aylward

12-26-2000 13:24:53




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 60 Flywheel in reply to clooney, 12-26-2000 13:07:11  
Clooney, I totally agree with your method of "torquing" a flywheel bolt. I do have some spec's around here for actual torque value, but if you have done enough of them, even on head bolts you can almost "feel" when you're right. Tight and even is a good starting point on flywheel bolts. I like to use a tall nut (NF)instead of a regular nut, too, if it's on a 70-720-730 series tractor. Hope this helps. Mike

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Gary

12-26-2000 13:48:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JD 60 Flywheel in reply to Mike Aylward, 12-26-2000 13:24:53  
Are the bolts on a 70, 720, 730 flywheel course or fine thread? You mentioned NF for the tall nut.

Would using a 1/2" longer bolt and double nuts be a really good, really bad, or neutral idea for keeping the bolts tight?



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Gary

12-24-2000 11:20:31




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 Re: Re: JD 60 Flywheel in reply to buckeye al, 12-24-2000 10:47:27  
When the flywheel is loose the pulley sounds like something is going to fly apart any minute. I imagine a tapler lock flywheel is in my future too. I have checked for cracks in the flywheel and have not found any. That is not to say it is not cracked or will not crack the next time I tighten up on it or while it is running. The splines look ok too right now. At least the next time the noise shows up I will know what it is.

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Paul from Michigan

12-23-2000 19:04:41




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 Re: JD 60 Flywheel in reply to Gary, 12-22-2000 10:00:00  
Don't know how to compare to a 60, but my styled B(hand start) had a very noticeable wobble to the flywheel when I bought it. I thought the crank was bent, but couldn't pass up the deal. Crank was fine, no runout on a dial indicator. I don't know what happened, but the flywheel wobbled about 1/8". I can't imagine Deere letting anything out of the factory like that, even in 1944 during WWII. Anyway a different flywheel runs true within a few thousands. The tractor ran fine, no vibration, just scared me to sit on it and watch the darned flywheel when it idled. Under load it wasn't noticeable at all. I think I still have the old flywheel if anyone wants to do some research. Paul

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Gary

12-24-2000 09:50:57




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 Re: Re: JD 60 Flywheel in reply to Paul from Michigan, 12-23-2000 19:04:41  

The wobble in my flywheel is less noticeable too when loaded. I am going to check to see how true the ring gear is. I can see how a little wobble can develop if there is wear on the crank splines.



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HiK

12-23-2000 15:12:47




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 Re: JD 60 Flywheel in reply to Gary, 12-22-2000 10:00:00  
Since the flywheel is cast iron, it will not be exactly true when spinning. The ring gear should be pretty true, but probly won't be perfect. I wouldn't worry about it. As far as bolts, you could probably find a good fine threaded bolt at an industrial fastener store or something like that, but if it runs good, I wouldn't worry about it. Good luck.



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Gary

12-24-2000 09:54:43




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 Re: Re: JD 60 Flywheel in reply to HiK, 12-23-2000 15:12:47  

I will let it alone for awhile and see if it works loose again. The only fine thread bolts I have found in the farm supply stores are hex head. Highest grade is grade 8. JD parts book describes the bolts as "high strength" but dont say what grade.



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