Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Attention Forum Users: On the 28th of December 2023 at 9:00am Central Time, we will be taking the forums down for maintenance while we prepare the new forums for your use. Please click here for more information.

Discussion Forum
:

Why'd they stop?

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
Karl Bader

11-19-2000 16:15:53




Report to Moderator

production of 2 cylinder tractors?

Your thoughts?


Karl




[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Buckeye al

11-24-2000 07:58:08




Report to Moderator
 Re: Why'd they stop? in reply to Karl Bader, 11-19-2000 16:15:53  
This is a long post. I hope you find the real life story interesting.

Some of the other posts mentioned the irregularity of the power to the drive train. The Deere -vs- the M when belted to hte thresing machine. A very true problem! I'd like to relate the following as a real example of how much of a problem this was.

My brother worked for a guy who's Dad ran a Ford tractor dealership. Dad would bring hard to diagnose tractors to the farm & let the boys run 'em 'till they quit. He'd then haul them back to the shop & fix them. Trouble was, they never came back! Once fixed, he'd put them on the lot for sale. To combat this (and partly just to spite the old man) the oldest son bought a late model JD 820. The old 820 consistently amazed them with its brute force and what a work horse it was.

Now to the problem they had.... These guys had a chopper that they ran with a 5000. The 5000 had had been traded in 'cause the previous owner didn't like the sound of the turbo. One afternoon the turbo started to make more noise & shortly thereafter announced it's resignation! Lots of smoke, knocking sounds and nasty noises! Hmmmmm. What now. The only other tractors on the farm were an old Fordson Dexta you needed dynamite to start (worn out), a Major without a PTO, a Farmall M and the 820. The 820 won the election. It did an amazing job of gobbling corn! One gear seemed a bit slow & the next seemed a bit high but these guys were sort of cowboys so you know where they ran it! The old 820 just barked louder & the corn really flew. Two days later they shut down for the PM milking. After milking some gear lube appeared to be leaking out of the chopper's main gear case. Checked the level. OK. Start chopping! The gear case self destructed shortly after. It was a right angle affair & the main case proper simply broke in half. Geeze. Must have been a bad casting & just finally broke after all these years. The IH dealer in town had an old parts chopper just like this one out back of their shop. Maybe they'd let go of the main gear case too! Sure enough they agreed & we went to work. We were able to start chopping after the PM milking the next day. The old 820 roared to life & chopped for three more days before some gear lube started leaking out of the gear case. Uh oh! It only lasted a few more hours. Same split to the main gear case! Back to the IH dealer we went. Knowing these guys' Dad ran the Ford dealer the IH man asked "what the $%&*@#%$ are you running that chopper with? An old JD 820 was the reply. Good Lord! No wonder! That old 820 has so much torque and hammering behind that PUTT PUTT PUTT it's just like a huge and very powerful impact wrench! Fox didn't build the chopper to be run with that much hammering. Deere built theirs to withstand the hammering of their own drive trains but not everybody put the beef into their machines to withstand such punishment.

This was our real life example of how big Deere tractors were simply becomming lethal to some other brands of tractor driven equipment. Deere engineers knew that in the 50's. They also knew still more power from even bigger 2 cylinder tractors would just have made matters worse! This matter "hammered home" the need for a New Generation of power.

I'm sorry. Bad pun there but I couldn't help myself.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Chuck

11-20-2000 04:04:01




Report to Moderator
 Re: Why'd they stop? in reply to Karl Bader, 11-19-2000 16:15:53  
An old John Deere mechanic buddy of mine advises that John Deere could not make the tractors any wider for bigger cylinder bores and also they wanted more RPM for the hydraulics and this was the reason for design change. With the hydraulic attachment demands the hand clutch was an obstacle as anyone of you can attest if you've ever tried to operate a loader or drive at high speed from farm to farm. John Deere really had the insight on this call.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
AWB

11-19-2000 21:00:54




Report to Moderator
 Re: Why'd they stop? in reply to Karl Bader, 11-19-2000 16:15:53  
Deere has always had a very good understanding of what the farmer wanted and needed. They very wisely stayed with the basic, rugged 2-cylinder design as long as they could.In the 1950's the size of farms became larger and larger, and farm labor became harder to keep. As a result of this the farmer had to be able to farm more acres more efficiently. This brought about for the need for higher horsepower tractors. From a practical and engineering standpoint Deere Had gotten about all the horsepower they could from the 2-cylinder design. Hope this sheds some light on your question.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Joe Evans

11-19-2000 19:37:58




Report to Moderator
 Re: Why'd they stop? in reply to Karl Bader, 11-19-2000 16:15:53  
I'd like to weigh in with the possibility that JD was also looking at the fuel economy figures of the big bore two-cylinder design. It takes more time for the ignition flame to propogate across such large diameters and fully burn all the fresh fuel charge in each cyliner before they're scavanged during the ensuing exhaust stroke.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G Taylor larger combustion chambers are usually better

11-20-2000 07:29:09




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Why'd they stop? in reply to Joe Evans, 11-19-2000 19:37:58  
The intent of combustion is to use the heat from combustion with the universal gas law to raise the combustion chamber pressure. The more combustion presure the better compaired to compression pressure. Higher compression ratios allow more energy to be mechanicaly extracted from the combustion pressure. Volume increases with the square of the diameter of the cylinder bore. The more combustion chamber volume compaired to combustion chamber wall area the better. The walls are "cold" so they absorb combustion heat and provide a place for fuel vapours to condense onto. This fuel isn't burned, it is blown out the stack or washes the lube off the cylinder walls. The relatively slow piston speed allowed enough time for combustion. However quite true the gas tractors with the spark plugs placed at the combustion chamber sides rather than center are more knock prone per unit of compression & require more ignition advance.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
jim

11-20-2000 06:38:42




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Why'd they stop? in reply to Joe Evans, 11-19-2000 19:37:58  
I don't think fuel economy was the problem. The two cylinder diesels (all of them) were the single most fuel efficient tractors of their day and set a standard which lasted until 1984 before being broken. At 17.97 hp hrs/gal, no one even came close. They can still give most modern tractors a real run for their money. Even the gas tractors had good figures. No, it was the very real need for a lot MORE hp than a 2 cyl could reliably deliver.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Brian K

11-19-2000 18:38:55




Report to Moderator
 Re: Why'd they stop? in reply to Karl Bader, 11-19-2000 16:15:53  
I read somewhere that the 2 cylinders had good fuel economy at only one setting, wide open throttle. At partial power and speeds they got less mileage than the 4 cylinder competition. When you figure that farmers went through the hassle of distillate burning to lower fuel costs . . .



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
burnsOmatic

11-19-2000 18:21:15




Report to Moderator
 Re: Why'd they stop? in reply to Karl Bader, 11-19-2000 16:15:53  
If you pick a series like the A thru the 630 and look at simple things like bore, stroke and RPM, you will see that Deere was refining these engines for power. Smaller bore with longer stroke and more RPM versus big bore/stroke and low RPMs. Believe it or not I got my JD G from a Amish gentlemen. He thrashed and filled his silo with it. However, his buddies would come over to help out and to see if they could stall the Ol' G. Obviously they couldn't stall the G but they just about beat the old thrasher to death with the uneven LOW rpms of the 2-cylinder design. To solve this problem, he bought a Farmall M so he could have smoother engine speed throught the rpm range. By the way, they stall the M all of the time.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G Taylor HD drive train sitting idle 2/3 of the time

11-20-2000 08:10:11




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Why'd they stop? in reply to burnsOmatic, 11-19-2000 18:21:15  
As per Brian & BurnOmatic they are onto a major factor. Long and uneven intervals between power pulses. Combustion pressure only acts on the drivetrain for 125 to 135 degrees of the 720 degrees per combustion cycle. With only two cylinders the entire drivetrain sees "power" for 34.7 to 37.5% of the time. Certainly the heavy flywheel stored some energy & supplied torque during the waits lessoning the problem. Energy stored in the flywheel drops to 1/4 when engine speed is halved. Hence the increased roughness when lugged down during overloads. Another reason why in the operator manual it says to operate at full rated RPM and up to 80% load. A six cylinder engine with the same thrust per piston as the two cylinder,same rpm, the same size drivetrain can carry 3 times the power (approx).Or a smaller more compact/cheaper drivetrain can carry the same power. Rpm is another factor. The same size shaft/gears/clutch etc can carry twice the power at the same torque loading if they are rotated twice as fast. Another reason for 1000 RPM pto as well.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Frank

11-19-2000 17:51:03




Report to Moderator
 Re: Why'd they stop? in reply to Karl Bader, 11-19-2000 16:15:53  
In 1960, the 2 cylinder design was over 30 years old. They had refined it as much as they could and still mass produce them. The farmers were demanding bigger more powerful machinery. The New Generation Tractors were not only more powerful but smoother running. I read somewhere that Deere was secretly experimenting with 4 and 6 cylinder engines in the early 50s, and, at the same time, publicly stating they would not abandon the tried and true 2 cylinder design.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
clooney

11-19-2000 17:29:38




Report to Moderator
 Re: Why'd they stop? in reply to Karl Bader, 11-19-2000 16:15:53  
Karl, you will receive many replays on this one, as far as I can determine it was due to needing more power. If you have seen a 730 or 830 you could see they were getting pretty wide and to put a bigger engine in them they would get even wider. The multi-cylinder engines performed better at varying engine speeds & allowed more power throughout the RPM range so they could be throttled down for non PTO work. The 2 cylinders were better at using heavy fuels like distillate & when farmers started to use gasoline the 2 cylinder wasn't needed. I'm sure there are many more reasons that the change was made so we will see what posts show up...A real good question you posted.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
ff316

11-19-2000 19:33:56




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Why'd they stop? in reply to clooney, 11-19-2000 17:29:38  
I read somewhere that among other things many farmers had gone to war in WW2 and drove tanks, duece and a halves, etc... and afterward the 2-bangers did not seem too adequate compared to the competition. Plus, I don't think there was a whole lot of refinement left in the design - don't get me wrong, I love them and would gladly unload my '48 Case SC for one right now. Anyhow, that's just my 2 pennies worth.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy