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John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum
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Coarse and Fine Thread trivia

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dan_41jdh

11-10-2003 15:35:39




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Yesterday, a thread entitled �Flywheel Bolts� indicated that fine thread bolts, with the same torque, would clamp significantly tighter than coarse thread bolts. This seems logical, but it is not accurate. In fact, for all practical purposes, the clamping forces compared between fine thread and coarse thread bolts of the same diameter, same torque, is essentially the same. The reason for this is as follows: Most of the torque is consumed by friction in two areas. One area is under the head of the bolt and the other is the 60 degree thread angle wedging the bolt to the internal threads. Obviously, some of the torque goes into the clamping force, but only a relatively small amount, roughly 10 percent or so. For example, if there was no friction, a �-13 coarse thread bolt torqued to 900 inch-pounds (75 foot-pounds) would be able to generate a 73,513 LB clamping force by climbing the helix angle of the threads. That�s a little scary because the ultimate strength of the bolt (if it�s grade 5) is only about 17,000 pounds. (Fine threads would generate a 113,097 LB force.) However, in the real world, because of all the friction, the clamping force resulting from that 900 inch-pound torque ends up in the neighborhood of approximately 9000 LB for either thread shape. So, although there is a slight difference between clamping forces of coarse thread and fine thread bolts (equally torqued), it isn�t enough to worry about. Basically, what this means is that when you're breaking your back trying to torque something down, don't think that it will be clamped tighter if the threads were fine. Most of your effort is going into overcoming head and thread friction, and only a small amount is really squeezing the parts together! A quick (and fairly accurate) formula to calculate clamping force is: F = T/(0.20 x d), where T is torque in inch pounds, and d is bolt diameter in inches, and F is the clamping force in pounds, no matter whether the threads are coarse or fine. Just a little "nuts and bolts" technology....

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Greg

11-12-2003 13:15:28




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 Re: Coarse and Fine Thread trivia in reply to dan_41jdh, 11-10-2003 15:35:39  
Sorry, was rushed and had to leave almost in mid-sentence.

The potential benefits of fine threads are:

1. Size for size a fine thread is stronger than a coarse thread . This is both in tension (because of the larger stress area) and shear (because of their larger minor diameter).

2. Fine threads have also less tendency to loosen since the thread incline is smaller and hence so is the off torque.

3. Because of the smaller pitch they allow finer adjustments in applications that need such a feature.

4. Fine threads can be more easily tapped into hard materials and thin walled tubes.

5. Fine threads require less torque to develop equivalent bolt preloads.

On the negative side:

1. Fine threads are more susceptible to galling than coarse threads.

2. They need longer thread engagements and are more prone to damage and thread fouling.

3. They are also less suitable for high speed assembly since they are more likely to seize when being tightened.

Normally a coarse thread is specified unless there is an over-riding reason to specify a fine thread. Certainly for metric fasteners, fine threads are more difficult to obtain.

Just thought I'd throw this out for interest's sake.

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Greg

11-12-2003 13:08:50




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 Re: Coarse and Fine Thread trivia in reply to dan_41jdh, 11-10-2003 15:35:39  
Just quickly:

1/2-13, preload (lb)= 15,450, bolt head torque 85 ft-lb, nut torque 95 ft-lb

1/2-20, preload = 17,400, bolt head torque 95, nut torque 105

The advantage is that you can torque the fine thread a little bit higher than the coarse thread without exceeding the yield point of the material, and then achieve a higher clamping force. Of course each individual situation will be different based on whether there are washers, coatings, lubricants and so on. In the case of using fine threads for joints with gaskets, it is easier to attain the needed clamping forces to satisfy the gasket seating and maintenance factors for proper sealing.

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phil

11-11-2003 08:48:12




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 Re: Coarse and Fine Thread trivia in reply to dan_41jdh, 11-10-2003 15:35:39  
Dan, good stuff. One thing I could add - the minor dia of a 1/2-13 is .4056 inch. The minor dia of a 1/2-20 is .4387. Ie, the fine thread bolt has about 17% more cross sectional area than a coarse thread, so it will accept about 17% more 'stretch' loading.



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dan_41jdh

11-11-2003 11:46:06




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 Re: Re: Coarse and Fine Thread trivia in reply to phil, 11-11-2003 08:48:12  
Phil,
Here's another thought about the minor diameter of a thread. You may have noticed that you can't saw across the threads and get the exact minor diameter of the thread form exposed. No matter how you angle your saw, you will always end up cutting across the thread tooth. This is because the thread path is a helix and you can't align a flat cutting plane with a helical shape. Similarly, if a bolt breaks in tension, it won't break across the minor diameter only (breaks always start in the root, or minor diameter area, but eventually, the break has to cross a thread in order to part the bolt in two). Because of all this, the fastener people have invented an artificial area called the "tensile area" of a threaded shape. The calculated tensile area is larger than the minor diameter area but smaller than the major diameter area. And, most industries use the tensile area to calculate the allowable load-carrying capacity of threaded fasteners instead of the minor diameter area.
Dan

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Wolfie

11-11-2003 11:40:29




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 Re: Re: Coarse and Fine Thread trivia in reply to phil, 11-11-2003 08:48:12  
Guys the question you should be asking your self about a coarse or fine thread is how thick is the material you are taping. Example taping a v belt bracket. Stock ticknes of 1/8 inch using a 1/2 inch tap. Now ask yourself fine or course. If you chose a course thread of 13 threads per inch your holding force will rely on only about 1 1/2 treads with fine tread of 20 you have 2 1/2 treads holding it. Now ask your self after you torque the bolt. Which is safer the fine or course thread. Also taping large course threads by hand are a lot harder to tap than a fine tread. Again do you have the means to tap large holes. Up to a 1/2 inch no problem with body power.

Wolfie

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John T

11-10-2003 20:25:47




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 Re: Coarse and Fine Thread trivia in reply to dan_41jdh, 11-10-2003 15:35:39  
Thanks for the great info Dan, Im electrical not a mechanical engineer, but I love these type of engineerign discusions. John T



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zane

11-11-2003 17:02:47




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 Re: Re: Coarse and Fine Thread trivia in reply to John T, 11-10-2003 20:25:47  
So do I, John. These nuggets of engineering are the main reason I visit the site. Many thanks to you and Clooney and others!



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dan_41jdh

11-11-2003 06:41:47




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 Re: Re: Coarse and Fine Thread trivia in reply to John T, 11-10-2003 20:25:47  
Hey John,
Although I was too late to get some of your free hot dogs and sit in on your seminars at the NY Expo this summer, I'll probably catch you at the GOG next March.
Dan



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John T

11-11-2003 07:25:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Coarse and Fine Thread trivia in reply to dan_41jdh, 11-11-2003 06:41:47  
C U there Dan, I think they scheduled me to give seminars Friday (charging systems) and Saturday (coil ignition) and maybe sit in on a few open discussions?? John T



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Dieselrider

11-10-2003 16:06:32




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 Re: Coarse and Fine Thread trivia in reply to dan_41jdh, 11-10-2003 15:35:39  
The way it was explained to me in my apprenticeship was that fine threads were used in situations where vibration could be a concern, as they don't back out as easily where vibration is pressent.



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