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Ignition coil polarity question?

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Mr. B~MI

04-18-2000 09:25:49




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Ok-- I have been seeing you folks talk about polarity changes but have been puzzled by the statement that you need to switch the coil leads, (Ign and Distributor connection reversing)As I remember the ignition coil has a primary and secondary winding, the primary winding must receive the voltage from the battery and compleet the circut through the points to ground. I am questioning why you need to change the two leads. As the primary coil loads when the points are closed, It can not tell which polarity it is receiving-- and should create a magnetic field no mater which way it is connected, the secondary winding is connected from the case on one end and to the high tension lead on the other, there again it only senses the collapse of the magnetic field. I just hooked a system up with it hooked as marked, and it has lots of spark and runs the tractor just fine which is a positive ground system. Give me some reason for the change!!!!

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G Taylor

04-18-2000 23:27:24




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 Re: Ignition coil polarity question? in reply to Mr. B~MI, 04-18-2000 09:25:49  
A few points further. The polarity of the plug electrodes is not changed by swapping the coil. It depends on which battery terminal is connected to chassis. Electrons move from negative to positive in direction. Electons perfer to jump from or to a sharp point or edge rather than a flat plane.eg golfer in lightening storm. The ignition coil is an "autotransformer".If connected in the wrong polarity the max output voltage is limited by the primary turns bucking the secondary turns on the common winding. Correct polarity makes all the winding voltages additive.

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ELECT ENGINEER

04-19-2000 02:51:52




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 Re: Re: Ignition coil polarity question? in reply to G Taylor, 04-18-2000 23:27:24  
SO YOU ARE SAYING A POSITIVE GROUND TRACTOR HAS POSITIVE "GROUND ELECTRODES"? NO WAY IS THAT TRUE!
IT DEPENDS ON THE WAY THE COIL IS HOOKED UP. IF THE COIL POLARITY IS WRONG THE ELECTRONS WILL FLOW THE WRONG WAY REGARDLESS OF THE BATTERY GROUND. THE COIL POLARITY WILL CHANGE WHEN THE BATTERY POLARITY IS CHANGED BUT IF THE POLARITY IS WRONG TO BEGIN WITH IT WILL STAY WRONG WHEN THE BATTERY GROUND IS CHANGED.

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G Taylor

04-19-2000 20:38:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Ignition coil polarity question? in reply to ELECT ENGINEER, 04-19-2000 02:51:52  
Hm yes, let that plug polarity slip through without enough explanation in the wee hours of the morning while trying to keep several points in brief layman's terms. I was thinking if no other changes are made just changing the battery polarity will swap the plug polarity. Also depends on coil secondary and which way it's connected with relation to chassis as per other posts. Why did you shout in your reply? I wonder what time zone buckeye is in since his autotransformer angle wasn't posted when I briefly mentioned it.I'm in the eastern set to day light savings. We could start the "what is a condensor,capacitor and it's rated value, what does it do and is it too big or small etc".Most people need a refresher on that on from time to time.

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ELECT ENGINEER

04-20-2000 03:03:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Ignition coil polarity question? in reply to G Taylor, 04-19-2000 20:38:41  
sorry about the shouting, i'm new to this posting. my eyes arn't as good as they used to be from looking at all those small wiring prints for many years, so i type so i can read it.



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clooney

04-18-2000 13:21:26




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 Re: Ignition coil polarity question? in reply to Mr. B~MI, 04-18-2000 09:25:49  
Mr. B~MI, how you doing bliss? You have been given a couple of good answers by Dave & Buckeye Al. Let me put another spin on it. It is the same as changing the polarity on an +/-DC welder. When you change the polarity on the low voltage side of the ign. coil you also change the polarity on the high voltage side. Shouldn't make a difference right... Wrong, when the spark jumps from the center electrode to the ground electrode it is jumping from a sharp edge to a blunt object. Like a DC welder on dc(-). When the polarity is reversed the spark jumps from a flat surface to a sharp object, #1 that takes more Kv to go that direction, #2 just like a DC welder on dc(+) it softens the spark (arc)& melts the electrode easier( burns it & dulls it easier). The more the center electrode is dulled the higher the kv has to be to jump the gap. The same rule applies to the rotor in the mag. or dist. If the spark jumps towards the rotor side electrode it errodes it quite quickly, and makes a nice shower of sparks to boot. These same principals apply to old spark plugs, just re-gapping won't do you also have to file the center electrode flat to remove the round edges.

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clooney

04-18-2000 13:46:38




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 Re: Re: Ignition coil polarity question? in reply to clooney, 04-18-2000 13:21:26  
Just a little follow up to my post, most newer autos use a combination of positive & negitive polarity to the spark plugs. If the engine has a form of "direct fire" ignition (no distributor & computer controlled ignition coils with platinum spark plugs)every other spark plug is positive polarity & the rest are negitive polarity. Instead of grounding one end of the high voltage coil winding to the engine ( like the old point type systems) one end of the high voltage winding goes to a spark plug & the other end of the winding goes to a second spark plug. This system works well if there isn't any unburnt fuel in the exhaust system, because both spark plugs fire each time the piston comes up to TDC (the old point system fired every other time the piston came up to TDC). A seperate ignition coil is required for each (2) cylinders that come up to TDC at the same time on the engine.

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Dave Wickman

04-18-2000 11:10:26




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 Re: Ignition coil polarity question? in reply to Mr. B~MI, 04-18-2000 09:25:49  
Mr. B, Here is the best way I can tell you and this information is from a John Deere FOS (Fundamentals Of Service) manual. Wrong polarity of the coil is not a serious problem, but can cause damage over a long period of time. A coil that is wrongly connected to the power source and the distributor will require an extra 4000 to 8000 volts to create the spark. Voltage in the secondary winding may go as high as 20,000 volts. However, it will only go as high as needed to cause the current to jump the spark plug gap. The wrong coil polarity makes the center electrode of the spark plugs have the wrong polarity. This can cause misfiring as the voltage required to jump the spark gap increases. The manual goes into allot more detail and can be purchased from John Deere publications. Manual number is FOS 20. Hope this will help. Dave Wickman

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buckeye al

04-18-2000 10:57:22




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 Re: Ignition coil polarity question? in reply to Mr. B~MI, 04-18-2000 09:25:49  
I know I'm going to regret answering your question but here goes. This is a LONG reply. Your question is one that is often very hotly debated!

The ingition coil is in reality an alternating current device. It is a very specific type of TRANSFORMER called an auto transformer. In the case of our old tractors the auto transformer (or coil) has a low voltage primary that is connected one end to the battery, the other to the distributor. You are correct, this primary winding does not care which direction the current flows through it! It is just mandatory that current does flow through it. When the current is interrupted, the magnetic field collapses and induces a voltage in the secondary that is OPPOSITE in polarity to the primary's voltages and currents. This is one of the laws of transformer action. Whatever happens in the primary is balanced (power wise) but opposite in polarity in the secondary. We put into the primary a low voltage high current and we get out of the secondary a high voltage low current(this is the balance I mentioned) but what comes out the secondary is opposite in polarity to the primary. So how does this have anything to do with wiring a coil to a tractor?

I'm going to ask you to picture in your mind (or draw it on paper) a stout spring wound with #9 wire that has perhaps 10 turns to it laying on the table in front of you. To the right end of this stout spring is a fine wire screen door spring. Lots of coils or turns and much finer wire! The battery is connected to the left end of the coarse spring which represents the primary winding. The points and condenser are connected to the junction point between the two springs. The High voltage lead out of the coil to the distributor is connected to the right end of the screen door spring which represents the secondary winding. This is the correct way to connect a coil to the tractor. If instead we connect the battery to the point between the springs, that puts the points and condenser at the left end of the primary winding. This wiring WILL work! The only problem is that this forces the spark current (what we really want out of the coil) to go through BOTH the primary and secondary windings to get to the spark plug. Since thatever happens in the secondary also happens in the primary BUT IN REVERSE POLARITY we get a weaker spark with the coil wired in this manner because the primary and secondary voltages are opposite in polarity and they fight each other. How much weaker the spark is is a function of the winding of the coil. Generally the difference is around 4 to 5 thousand volts less when wired incorrectly. I know I can't just hold a spark plug wire away from the plug or ground and see the difference in length of the spark or feel the difference either. They both smart! So there's just one last question..... Did the manufacturer of the coil label the case + at the left end of our table top example or did they label this point as -? Generally the post labelled - is the junction between the primary and secondary which is the distributor side of the coil. You're most apt to see this reversal on old coils.

There are exceptions to this example. The Wico distributor made for Deere's Pony engines is nothing like this example at all! Most 2 cylendar motorcycles and today's GM (probably others) use this Pony style exception. They're most easily spotted by noting that there are 2 high voltage wires comming from each coil.

There is one more test that can be performed that involves placing a lead pencil point in the middle of a spark and watching which side of the pencil has the yellow spark. I'll have to look that one up to adequately describe how to set up that experiment, I won't trust my memory to that one!

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Mr.B~MI

04-18-2000 14:06:23




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 Re: Re: Ignition coil polarity question? in reply to buckeye al, 04-18-2000 10:57:22  
Thanks Gentelmen-- I was not seeing any reason to hook it in reverse, Quit posibly you are correct, I was studying a schematic of a coil and I couldn't see where it should make a difference. But then the only diagram of a coil I have is one to a electronic ignition, But as I remember it looks to be constructed the same as the older ones. I still have a hard time with the high voltage, seeing a difference which way it may travel. But I will do it your way-- Thanks Again-- Mr. B

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Dave Wickman

04-18-2000 11:26:38




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 Re: Re: Ignition coil polarity question? in reply to buckeye al, 04-18-2000 10:57:22  
buckeye, After posting my reply I see you already have given a very good explanation. I like the way you explained it and I think we both are saying the same thing. It's all about polarity and efficiency of the coil. Thanks for the great explanation, Dave W.



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buckeye al

04-18-2000 14:37:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Ignition coil polarity question? in reply to Dave Wickman, 04-18-2000 11:26:38  
Have learned a lot from reading your posts. Your thank you is appreciated.



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