Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Attention Forum Users: On the 28th of December 2023 at 9:00am Central Time, we will be taking the forums down for maintenance while we prepare the new forums for your use. Please click here for more information.

Discussion Forum
:

4020 Charging Problem

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
Mike

04-03-2000 17:20:03




Report to Moderator

I have a 66 4020D that someone has converted from 24V to 12V. I bought the tractor last fall, and 2 out of 3 times it doesn't have enought cranking power to start. I can use my truck to jump start it, but if I try to jump the left side battery, nothing happens. Only if I jump the right side will it start, then it spins over like it should and starts right up. Also, if I've run it for awhile, it will start right up, but if I leave it sit overnight (even at 60 degrees), if usually won't start.

I've read some archived postes about the 12V & 24V systems. Both have their strong points, but I don't use the tractor for anything except for pushing snow & dirt, moxing, baling, and hauling. Should I try and convert it back to 24V, or stay with 12V? Any ideas where the problem may lie? I know I should check the batteries for dead cells, and I may have to buy new batteries, but don't want to until I get this charging issue fixed.Any ideas or info would be greatly appreciated.

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
G Taylor

04-05-2000 15:49:50




Report to Moderator
 Re: 4020 Charging Problem in reply to Mike, 04-03-2000 17:20:03  
As per previous posts. Each battery has to be equaly charged & equaly loaded. As soon as any current leak or extra accessory load draws more from one battery than the other the system is doomed. Extra 12v isolated ground loads can be supplied via a solid state regulator from any good electronic outlet such as Electrosonic. These solid state regulators ( not a resistor) take for example 16 to 35 volts DC down to a regulated 13.5 or 14 volts. Allows equal loading of both batteries for unbalanced accessories. This avoids trying to equaly balance new electrical loads. For accessory work lights etc it's best to purchase two matched isolated ground 12v lamps, connect them in series and supply with 24vdc and don't use any chassis ground.Use two fuses by the way. A classic problem is somebody adding a couple of lights or a crop monitor off one half of the system. Batteries MUST be matched in make,size and age as well as loads & charging. Something similar to replacing fluorescent lamps, always replace in pairs.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Lets Think About It

04-04-2000 07:30:01




Report to Moderator
 Re: 4020 Charging Problem in reply to Mike, 04-03-2000 17:20:03  
Mike, I think you have your problem pretty well figured out. All we have to do is summarize what you have just told us in your post. First the tractor has been converted to 12 volt, that tells me the two 12 volt batteries are now connected parallel. Second the tractor starts hard. Third the tractor starts easy when jumping the right hand battery. Fourth the tractor cranks better after it has run a while. OK now let think about it??? The tractor will crank when jumping just one battery and not the other that tells me that the battery being jumped that does not help (left battery) has a connection problem either to ground or to the starter. If the tractor cranks over fine when jumping the right battery that tells me that there is nothing wrong with your starter and it also tells me that the right hand battery does not have enough power by itself to crank a cold engine. Also the tractor will start after it has been run for a while that tells me that the charging system is probably working. The thing to do is check the system for a battery drain when not in use, Probably OK. Second have both your batteries checked and charged. Third remove, inspect and clean all battery cables, grounds and connections. To check your cables and connections hook up one good charged battery at a time and see if the tractor will crank. When each battery will crank the engine over independently then connect the second battery back in the parallel system. It sounds like to me that the connections on the left battery are for sure a problem and the battery on the right is not holding its charge which may be do to a battery drain or just a poor battery. When you get both your batteries in shape and your connections to the starter whether it be cables or grounds, in shape the tractor will work just fine on 12 volt. Another very common over sight people will make when converting the 24 volt systems to 12 is that they don't put heavier battery cables on to replace the smaller 24 volt cables. The higher the voltage the smaller the cable and the lower the voltage the bigger the cable you will need to do the same work. So if the tractor still has the same (small) 24 volt cables go get yourself bigger ones like used on a factory 12 volt system. Hope this will be of some help. Good Luck, Dave Wickman

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Larry24d

04-04-2000 18:37:17




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: 4020 Charging Problem in reply to Lets Think About It, 04-04-2000 07:30:01  
I'm wondering after reading some of this...is the starter still 24V or 12V??? My assumption was that you still have the 24V starter?? If so...I'm thinking that some of your responses are really wrong...let us know...I'm curious now...



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Mike

04-05-2000 08:46:30




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: 4020 Charging Problem in reply to Larry24d, 04-04-2000 18:37:17  
The starter is a 12V



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John T (Hey Dave)

04-04-2000 14:17:44




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: 4020 Charging Problem in reply to Lets Think About It, 04-04-2000 07:30:01  
Hey there Dave, if we could convince these guys to stay with a properly maintained 24 volt system they wouldnt have these problems. I have seen so many cobbled up and miswired and Ive seen them with two 12 in paralell and two sixes in series or all the loads off one battery. I guess the cost of 24 volt staters or generators is what drove many of them to convert?? John T PS I gave up on hubs for the HC152B F and H A Wheels and became convinced they were made for A;s (not my B) with that non locking ring internal wedge lock and would never be expo proper on a B. Yesterday I bought a unstyled B with correct 10 spline locking ring type round spokes so im selling the A Wheels.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dave Wickman

04-05-2000 07:24:04




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: 4020 Charging Problem in reply to John T (Hey Dave), 04-04-2000 14:17:44  
John, Couldn't agree more on leaving the 24 volt systems alone. All the years that I worked for the dealerships I always encouraged people to repair the original 24 volt systems the way they were designed to be. I think the real pusher on people that converted them was the 24 volt systems were different and difficult for the average shade tree mechanic to maintain. (No offence to anybody) the second was that people got in there head that these systems were not compatible with the different monitors and accessories that were used on these tractors. Actually they were the MOST compatible, you just had to hook them up according to polarity. I am not stretching the truth one bit in saying in the last twenty two years and hundreds of these 24 volt systems that I have done service work on that less than 5% were ever converted and that was against my better judgment. Nothing wrong with a converted 24 volt to 12 volt system if it is done right and like you said you see all kinds of sad cases out there. The ones that I have convert I have learned that the kits that the short liners sell are some of the poorest out there. After installing a couple of them and seeing what a joke they were I did all my conversions from scratch and used quality parts from the parts department right at the dealership. Yes it did cost a little more but if they want it right and trouble free I could guarantee it. I could also right a short book on the things that I have learned converting these systems and the problems that were common with them. The most of the converted systems were not trouble free either due to the quality of the conversion, as you can read about on allot of these post. Keep them on track John, Dave W.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Gary

04-05-2000 08:46:23




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: 4020 Charging Problem in reply to Dave Wickman, 04-05-2000 07:24:04  
I encountered starting problems with my 24 volt JD 3030. I contacted JD and they said the newer 3020's were 12 volt and recommended converting. They sent me publication DS TY21692 which shows you how. I was reluctant to get rid of my heav duty looking 24 volt starter so I put on a 24 volt alternator instead and hooked the batteries in series with a cable instead of thru the tractor frame. It is a little tricky hooking up your lights and instruments this way but I got it woking. The old 24 volt generator was always needing brushes. Other than battery failure occurring more often than I would like and an occasional bad cable connection (always on the left side for some strange reason) I have not had any more starting problems. My fuel gauge was already bad and when I tried to get another one I was told they are all 12 volt now.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dave Wickman

04-05-2000 12:14:51




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 4020 Charging Problem in reply to Gary, 04-05-2000 08:46:23  
Gary, The dealer was right as far as the later 3020 diesel tractors being 12 volt. They went to that in 1969. As far as the only way to fix your problem I would say that is a matter of opinion? Nothing wrong in the route you chose. Some dealerships are also guilty of not being able to diagnose and repair 24 volt systems and the political way of not making your business look inadequate is sell you on converting it to 12 volt. I guess what I am trying to say is that it sounded like they were not smart enough to fix the original system. As to your one battery going dead, this is not an uncommon problem and should be able to be fixed. Make sure all 12 volt loads are divided evenly like the system was designed to be or you will have this problem or if the battery goes dead when the tractor is setting it may have a drain on that battery. The system may have a 12 volt leak pulling off the battery that is needing charging all the time. Shut all accessories off put an amp meter in series between the battery post and cable of the battery of concern and trace the system until the leak is located and repaired. The common battery to always leak down is the right and still may be the same in your case because maybe the cables have been changed around where the batteries are in the opposite boxes. The battery that has its power cable going to the side of the starter not the solenoid (normally the right battery) is always the battery that does not want to stay up because this battery is feeding the fields in the starter and generator all the time and brush grindings, heat, deterioration and vibration will cause the field windings to short to ground resulting in a full time leak on that battery. Usually more times than not the starter is the culprit but the charging unit is also a possibility. Get yourself a wiring diagram and make sure all the electrical circuit are hooked up the way the system was designed or your batteries will not charge up even doesn't matter if you have a 24 volt alternator or generator. Hope this will help you out Good Luck!! Dave

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
ronm

04-04-2000 22:53:29




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: 4020 Charging Problem in reply to John T (Hey Dave), 04-04-2000 14:17:44  
Amen to that, John T! I've been telling that to anybody that will listen. I've done a few of these conversions, & on about half of them, found such crappy cables they had to be changed, which would have made the 24v system work like it was intended. I'll be glad when this 12v conv. BS runs its course. Don't throw away your old 24v components! In a few more years, they'll all be wanting to go back to original. Thanks for the opportunity to go on a tirade-Ron.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John T

04-04-2000 07:18:14




Report to Moderator
 Re: 4020 Charging Problem in reply to Mike, 04-03-2000 17:20:03  
Mike, without knowing how it was actually converted, this is hard to diagnose over the net. I would start with suspecting the battery that seems to work, it may well have a dead cell (look in all of them for a cloudy liquid in one of them). Now, do you have two 12 volters in parallell or two sixes in series?? If jumping one side doestn seem to do anything, Im wondering if the wiring or conversion was ever done right in the first place. The 24 volt system is far superior at cranking an engine over because at 24 volts you only draw half the amperage as at 12 volts and you drop less voltage (and energy) across the starter cables and connections are less critical and less apt to fail because you have less current and heat developed. However, at 24, you need to go back to a 24 volt two terminal generator and, of course, the 24 volt two terminal non case grounded starter. As my buddy Mike there below well knows, two batteries in series are generally better, because the combination usually has more lead and acid and plates meaning more energy storage and ability to deliver starting current. Also, check and clean and wire brush and re tighten all battery and ground connections, because although they can show full voltage at no load, any carboned up connections develop heat and resistance under load. Have both batteries load tested and tested for dead cells and then see what happens. Ol John T in Indiana

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Mike Aylward

04-04-2000 06:24:26




Report to Moderator
 Re: 4020 Charging Problem in reply to Mike, 04-03-2000 17:20:03  
Mike, it sounds like you may have a battery problem, especially if the battery has some age on it. I have a '64 4020 that I converted to 12 volt and it was the best thing I ever did to this tractor. Some may argue, but I prefer to have two 6 volt batteries in series rather than two 12's in parallel. John T. and I agree on this. Also, if you have any of the clamp-on battery ends they will give you trouble, too. An old mechanic once told me years ago that for every one of them you have the amperage carrying capacity drops in half. They are a "get by till I can really get it fixed" thing to me. Hope this helps. Mike

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
GlennB

04-04-2000 06:10:19




Report to Moderator
 Re: 4020 Charging Problem in reply to Mike, 04-03-2000 17:20:03  
Try using a volt/ohm meter to check for shorts in wiring, and presence of a good ground on the left battery. It would appear that all is good with the right battery. Pull neg cable off of the left battery, and place the voltmeter in line, with all lights and do-dads off. The meter should read 0 volts. Anything else represents a current drain, or short.

Then placing the voltmeter (set to Ohms now) in line with the negative cable end to a good frame ground, the meter should freely swing full scale, I.E. no resistance. If not, the cable attatchment to frame is bad.

No shorts and good ground? Sounds like a farmer to me..... ..but back to topic, something is wrong at battery or alternator and wiring level, pulling the battery would be easiest for me at that point. Good battery under load test? Alternator and wiring. Get the right circuit diagram at Deere and make sure all circuits are properly run, and intact. Good luck!

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JD 3020

04-03-2000 18:00:10




Report to Moderator
 Re: 4020 Charging Problem in reply to Mike, 04-03-2000 17:20:03  
That is interesting. I have a 24 volt 3020 and no matter which battery is weak, jumping the right side will work and jumping the left side won't. When I bought it there was a generator on it which JD describes as floating ground in the manual. I installed a 24 volt alternator which works much better. The lead acid batteries still leak and one tends to get charged more than the other. After a while, the tractor has to be jump started. I always thought this was a characteristic of the 2 batteries hooked together in series through the frame of the tractor to provide 24 volts across the starter. Lights and instruments are taken off 1 battery so are still 12 volt. But if your system is 12 volt and can only be jump started on the right side then I am really stumped unless it just so happens that your right battery is the one that is weak. Either way the problem is most likely the generator or the voltage regulator. Take both batteries off and charge them separately and see what happens. Have your generator bench checked. I also thought that John Deere switched to 12 volt systems before 1966 but am not sure. They also switched to alternators somewhere along the way. I am assuming you have a generator.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Larry24d

04-04-2000 04:04:57




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: 4020 Charging Problem in reply to JD 3020, 04-03-2000 18:00:10  
I've got my service manual out...here's what it says..."the 24V two-wire cirucits include the starting and charging circuits. The only portion of the 24V circuit carried by the tractor frame is the series connection between the 12V batteries. Two separate 12V electrical systems (one from each battery) supply current to the tractos lights, accessories, and the instruments. The 12V circuits use the tractor frame as a part of the circuit...I've got the wiring diagram here. looks to me like one side has the positive going to ground....looks like the left side, in my book, and the other shows the negative going to ground. I don't have time right now, but will have my kids scan the diagram and post it on here tonight when I get off work...

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
MW turbo

10-21-2003 18:01:31




Report to Moderator
 Re: 4230 with MW Turbo at auction in reply to Will, 10-21-2003 11:40:55  
He could have this tractor cranking out 140 horsepower easily.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Mike

04-03-2000 19:20:27




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: 4020 Charging Problem in reply to JD 3020, 04-03-2000 18:00:10  
Just to clarify,

The tractor has a Delco alternator, and the original generator is long gone.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JD 3020

04-03-2000 20:10:02




Report to Moderator
 Re: Re: Re: 4020 Charging Problem in reply to Mike, 04-03-2000 19:20:27  
If you have an ammeter on the dash or can otherwise determine that the alternator is working and have checked for any bad wiring connections then replacement of one or both batteries should be the next thing to try. It is also possible that one of the auxillary circuits like to the instrument panel or lights might be draining one battery when the tractor is not running. Try unhooking the battery posts when you leave it setting for a while.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy