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John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum
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Timing the engine

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B owner

04-01-2008 04:18:01




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My friend and I are trying to get the old B ready for spring. We put a newly rebuilt (hot) mag on the old B. We set it up per the book instructions so that it clicks on the LH impulse with the timing marks aligned. It still seems to pop and snap like the timing is wrong. We attached a timing light to see how far off it is so that we could fine tune the mag in the adjustment slots. The timing light shows that the mark is advanced, and maxing out the adjustment will not move it to TDC. What are we doing wrong?

The gears in the govenor are aligned properly between the dots. Is it possible to use a timing light on these mags or should we just leave the timing at the point that the mag clicks?

B owner

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John T

04-01-2008 08:00:30




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 Re: Timing the engine in reply to B owner, 04-01-2008 04:18:01  
I would expect the engine to be firing in the 20 to 35 BTDC range when running cuz over 250 RPM the Mags impule start timing is disabled at which time the run time advance takes control. When she fires then is a function of the Drive cup (like a 25 or 35 BTDC unit) you are using,,,,, ,,, the points gap,,,,, ,,the wear in the cup and flange,,,,, ,,,wear in the bushings etc..... IE SHE IS SUPPOSED TO BE FIRING AT 20 TO 35 OR SO BTDC WHEN RUNNING

The mags snap and static start timing needs to be near TDC cuz otherwise if she fires too much before TDC the flywheel would kick back.

Hope this helps. I may be writing some articles on mag timing for Green Magazine in the future and will have several pages in which to explain this all in detail.

John T

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PBrowning

04-01-2008 09:34:48




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 Re: Timing the engine in reply to John T, 04-01-2008 08:00:30  
John -- Do you want some assistance with the GM article? Would you like to be privy to the electrical chapter of the JD-H Restoration Guide as a help?

My email is open -- let me know (PatB)



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John T

04-01-2008 10:33:18




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 Re: Timing the engine in reply to PBrowning, 04-01-2008 09:34:48  
Thanks Pat, Ive pretty well got all the verbal portions rough drafted its some of the pictures I may try n "borrow" from different Wico literature Ive picked up over the years which Im pretty sure is all in the public domain by now. I have got some from Duane or Glenn and probably even some from your site over the course of time along with SM 2029. While pictures can be worth a thousand words it still takes several words (by me at least) to try n explain all that Lag Angle and start/impulse versus run time advance and drive cups etc etc to a novice. What you described below as "perfect timing" is how Duane does it also and I can, but for light duty parade use I get my start/impule so shes dead on (for good hand starting) and dont worry so much about run time so long as shes anywhere near 20 to 35 degrees (but thats much to fast for gasoline use in my opinion). Now if I were going to Dyno it for max HP or gonna plow hard all day thats a different matter, but I dont have the patience to keep taking it on n off n adjusting the rear stop plate until I get the start timing I want, thats why I fine tune/final just adjust it in the flange n so be it if the run time is a few degrees here or there.

John T

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THE SMOOTHED DEERES

04-01-2008 08:25:43




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 Re: Timing the engine in reply to John T, 04-01-2008 08:00:30  
John T , I didn't relize you were a t.v. star too . They showed you on a old classic tractor program i had recorded . What are 30 ? 35 ? You look so young .....



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John T

04-01-2008 10:15:15




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 Re: Timing the engine in reply to THE SMOOTHED DEERES, 04-01-2008 08:25:43  
Thanks but I'm double your guess of 30 lol. I think that was from the 2003 or 2005 New York State Expo, Ive given Workshop/Seminars at three of them now I think.

Yall take care now

John T



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johndeereman

04-01-2008 07:29:21




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 Re: Timing the engine in reply to B owner, 04-01-2008 04:18:01  
check the back of the mag its gotta be timed with the cup you got its either a 25 or 35 degree cup the center line is 13 degrees and every line after is 5 degrees you got lines on both sides in case you have a diff tractor that turns the other way on your b if you are looking at the back of the mag it needs to be on the left side of the center line your cup should have a stamp on it as to what degree it is just start at 13 and count till you get where you are supposed to be of course it wont land right on a line because the center is 13 you have to kinda guesstimate hope this helps

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farmboy169

04-01-2008 05:45:32




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 Re: Timing the engine in reply to B owner, 04-01-2008 04:18:01  
Is the drive flange on the governor shaft horizontal when marks are lined up? Otherwise you could try this, if you haven't all ready. Turn magneto to where it is firing the front terminal, with timing marks lined up put on tractor, push top of magneto all the way forward, turn flywheel backwards about a 1/4 turn then slowly turn in normal direction until L.H. Impulse marks line up again, then slowly push top of magneto rearward until the impulse "click" trips. That should be it hopefully this will help you. Jason.

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B Owner

04-01-2008 05:58:06




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 Re: Timing the engine (Clarification) in reply to farmboy169, 04-01-2008 05:45:32  
Let me clarify. The engine runs. The drive flange is horizontal when the timing marks are lined up. The mag was installed with the timing marks aligned and LH impulse firing on the Left cylinder per the manual. The engine runs sporatically, popping and snapping. We don't think it is 180 out. But, the timing light connected to LH spark plug wire (top of the mag) indicates that the timing is advanced and can not be adjusted to TDC by moving the Mag within the adjustment slots.

I would think the timing light is telling me exactly when the LH plug is firing, but I am unable to adjust it to TDC.

B owner

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Mike M

04-01-2008 06:17:54




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 Re: Timing the engine (Clarification) in reply to B Owner, 04-01-2008 05:58:06  
The STARTING timing is TDC the running timing you are checking with the light will be advanced 25* or 35* depending on which impulse coupling you have.

Don't know how familar you are with 2 cyls. but at an idle most will pop and run sporatically ? You have to put them under a load to smooth them out.



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PBrowning

04-01-2008 06:16:09




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 Re: Timing the engine (Clarification) in reply to B Owner, 04-01-2008 05:58:06  
With the engine running, you will be looking for fire at a point approximately 30� BTDC and not at TDC. Perhaps this is why you didn't see it (PatB)

EXCERPTS FROM THE JD-H RESTORATION GUIDE - - - MAGNETO TIMING

LAG ANGLE -- The lag angle or impulse range is the angular amount of retardation in timing between a magneto at cranking speed and one at running speed. The drive cup installed and the impulse stop plate adjustment are the factors that determine this relationship. For the JD H, this angle is set at 30 degrees. The drive cup determines the running timing, and starting (also called impulse) timing is adjusted by the position of the impulse stop ring on the drive cup end of the magneto. NOTE: For gasoline operation, the trend is toward a 25 degree lag angle. All discussion herein will state 30 degrees.

STARTING TIMING should be very close to TDC. Some observers say that an advance of several (not more than 4) degrees BTC makes easier hand starts for the early JD tractors. Others claim it makes starting more difficult and is especially hard on a starter motor. Starting timing is easy to detect. No instrument is required. It occurs as the magneto sounds with its familiar "snapping" click.

RUNNING TIMING -- The amount of advance BTDC is determined by the specific drive cup installed on the magneto. The switch from starting timing to running timing is an automatic function. Running timing is the result of the specific drive cup installed and the position of the magneto on the tractor. Rotate the top of the magneto to the rear for more advance, and forward to reduce the advance. The "rotating" action or phenomenon is similar to loosening the locknut and rotating the distributor on a '57 Chevy. For those adept in timing light use, this adjustment can be performed on a running tractor! See "Timing" paragraph below.

PERFECT TIMING -- If you have a timing light and know how to use it, establish a reference point on the tractor for TDC. Then mark the flywheel at 30 degrees BTDC in relation to the reference mark. Start the engine and set timing by rotating the magneto forward or to the rear. Next, scribe two index or registry marks, one on the magneto flange and the other on the governor housing. In-register condition of these marks represents your running timing. Stop the engine and remove the timing light. Rotate flywheel forward slowly, observing when the impulse occurs. If it is at TDC, you are finished! If impulse comes before it should: remove the magneto, loosen the four screws securing the impulse stop ring, and rotate the ring CCW ever so slightly. Reinstall the magneto ensuring those two new marks you made are in register and check your impulse timing again. Repeat this process of trial and error until you achieve the impulse timing desired, then secure mechanical and electrical connections. This procedure represents the proper method to achieve perfect magneto timing at the factory-specified 30 degrees BTC for running conditions, and the ignition timing for starting is as TDC. ++++

If you want more, write me -- my email is open. Also, you can read a bit about JD-"E" systems on the JD-H Restoration Site (below), scan across to ARTICLES 1, and then from the drop-downs, select ELECT SYSTEMS. (PatB)

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gurneejoe

04-01-2008 05:32:42




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 Re: Timing the engine in reply to B owner, 04-01-2008 04:18:01  
You can put the mag in 180 off. It is a 50/50 chance. If this is the case a quick way to check is to reverse the wires and see if it runs. If so you can take it out and turn the mag a half turn or leave it.



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