Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Discussion Forum
:

2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
mdaitc

03-17-2008 19:06:05




Report to Moderator

Hi,

i've come to the conclusion having spent the winter with my 2840 that it's not quite right in the injection pump - it's got a CAV on it. I've had the injectors checked/clean, and they're fine, but still am running into issues which i think is related to the injection pump.

The problems are with starting the tractor (hard starter, even @55F outside), and there's lots of carbon buildup in the smoke stack - it's a new chrome pipe i put on. It smokes a lot until it warms up. I dont believe there's a compression problem, the machine dyno'd out well before i bought it, and there's no blow-by.

I'm thinking the way forward is to replace the injection pump - rather than getting a rebuilt CAV, i've been told that it might be better to put a Roosamaster/Stanadyne pump on it instead.

So my question: is there a (documented) process to doing this? What other than the pump, lines, timing gear would i need? I hear that compatible 329 engines include: 4030, 4400 combine, 6600 combine (in the 329 model). And then ultimately, maybe get a turbo to replace the underhood muffler.

has anyone attempted this before? or does it make more sense to just get a rebuilt CAV?

thanks!

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
buickanddeere

03-19-2008 09:18:42




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-17-2008 19:06:05  
You can't just install cables and figure the connections are good. You HAVE to measure the voltages and find the voltage drops. The Deere site's parts section lists various starters for equipment with Dubuque 329,359 & 414 engines. In particular the industrial equipment will show the 4KW starter. It's all about how fast that motor is cranked over. I was a little surprised last night how rapidly the 1640 rotated after the battery & cable upgrades. It was around freezing and she fired right off on a couple of turns. E-bay will show oodles of Two Bolt Dubuque starters if you search Deere starter Bosch or Deere starter Delco. Then pick through the listings with a $49.99 to $ 399.99 limits. Use the words lawn, garden, atv, gator as exclusion words. There is a tooth pitch that has to be matched. I've seen listings where the pitch was the same but different tooth numbers were listed. Of course the more teeth in the starter drive the faster she'll crank the engine.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
mdaitc

03-19-2008 06:32:29




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-17-2008 19:06:05  
Thanks,

i'll try removing the shims to see if helps the problem. Is there any drawback with advancing the timing to the performance at the top end of the RPM range?

I do already have a coolant heater - it's typically on for 2 hours before i've been trying to start it, and it does help.

The starter looks stock/original - what's a good source of a 4KW replacement starter?

thanks for all the suggestions guys,

mdaitc

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
jdemaris

03-19-2008 07:13:50




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-19-2008 06:32:29  
Do what you want - but the pump will work fine with cold starting at almost zero transfer-pump pressure as long as the static timing is set correctly.

It was one of many issues that Deere suspected with starting problems with 40-series tractors. On a few it was true, with most it had nothing to do with the problem.

You can buy brand new starters for around $150. Direct drive and gear reduction. Keep in mind that gear reduction starters will usually crank better in cold weather and can do it with a smaller electric motor - so the motor amp-draw is not always a good figure to use. Deere originally used 700 amp and 900 amp ratings on direct-drive starters. When they started getting rated in watts or kilowatts instead of amps, it kind of lost me. My 7.3 diesel in my Ford truck has a 3000 watt starter and works great. My 6.2 diesels have 2700 watt and 3500 watt GR starters - going by their ratings - and all work fine.

Try DB Electrical - that's where I've been buying.
They are in Tenessee and you can call if you want specs. 1-800-753-2242 Link

A>Link new gear-reduction starter - Nippondenso style OSGR 2.7 kW, 12 Volt, CW, 13-Tooth Pinion is $140.

A new direct-drive Bosch/Delco syle is $150 new.

It fits the following and more:
John Deere Tractor - 820VU, 1020, 1030, 1040, 1065, 1068, 1075, 1085, 1120, 1130, 1140, 1520, 1530, 1630, 1640, 1830, 1840, 2020, 2030, 2040, 2120, 2130, 2140, 2150, 2155, 2240, 2440, 2510, 2520, 2550, 2555, 2750, 2755, 2840, 2855N, 2440, 2550, 2555, 2750, 2755, 2840, 2855N, 2940, 2950, 2955, 3040, 3055, 3120, 3130, 3140, 3150, 3155, 3255, 6100, 6200, 6300, 6400, 830, 920, 925, 930, 932, 935, 940, 942, 945, 952, 955, 965, 986, 975, 5200, 5300, 5400, 5500

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bill(Wis)

03-18-2008 19:34:29




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-17-2008 19:06:05  
After checking the many items already suggested, I suggest being really "nice" to your tractor and install an engine coolant heater on it. My favorite after market haeter is the so-called "tank type". It heats and circulates engine coolant, warms the entire engine. Zerostart is one make. 1500w sells for $50. Throw a tarp over the hood to further retain heat if it's sitting outside.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
LarrySTN

03-18-2008 16:21:19




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-17-2008 19:06:05  
Keep your CAV pump! The Roosa-Master Stanadyne pumps will NOT improve your starting but likely will make starting worse. Make sure you have properly timed your pump, not just played with timing. Unburned fuel from the exhaust in NOT due to pump trouble. Check the cranking compression pressure. Does your tractor have a gear reduction starter, if so it makes the engine crank slower which also hinders starting.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
mdaitc

03-18-2008 15:10:07




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to The Dukester, 03-17-2008 19:06:05  

buickanddeere said: (quoted from post at 16:50:32 03/18/08) If the starter motor is original. It's time to replace it with a fresh 4KW starter. Even if it's still sort of working.


Is there a part number of a 4KW starter that I can match against? looking at the JD parts site, there's no mention of the power rating of the starter.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
mdaitc

03-18-2008 15:07:36




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-17-2008 19:06:05  
Cables are new: i've upgraded them from the single cable with two terminals to two separate heavier cables.

Batteries are 18mths old and hold their charge - i've charged them and tested them (resistance type tester) and they dont drop voltage when a heavy load is applied across them like tired old batteries do.

Changing starter might be an idea, i'll start on that hunt next :-)



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
buickanddeere

03-19-2008 09:22:49




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-18-2008 15:07:36  
I quit using the chassis ground connection alone on the firewall and in addition ran another (-) cable direct to one of the starter's mounting studs. Brought more than a volt additional to the starter motor. The cables have to be 2/00. The auto store #4 or #1 stuff is only good for garden tractors.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
mdaitc

03-18-2008 11:24:52




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-17-2008 19:06:05  
i dont know the full history of the tractor, i got hold of it last summer - it's always started hard since i got it. i'm not sure if the engine has been rebuilt or not - when i purchased the tractor, the tachometer didn't work, so not sure how many hours it has on it even.

I've checked/adjusted the valve clearance, and it's now back in shape.
I haven't adjusted the fuel delivery on the pump - my initial reaction to it is that it seems too "rich" at the low end and with the unburnt fuel spat out of the exhaust when it first starts, so my thought would have been to go the other way and lean it off a little?

I did adjust the pump timing by rotating the pump slightly (looking from back of tractor forward, pump rotated clockwise), and it did make a slight difference in ease of starting/initial smoking, but the pump didn't rotate much further, and i didn't want to go too far rotating it. I think you mentioned in a post a while back, that there was a method of using a timing light to adjust the timing of the pump - the CAV tech manual doesn't have this in it, could you possibly elaborate?

having said all of that, the motor does run fine/no smoke when warm, etc, so it might just be me being too sensitive when it's cold :-)
thanks,

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
buickanddeere

03-18-2008 14:50:32




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-18-2008 11:24:52  
Can you get the electrical info? The injection system can be tinkered with from now until eternity but..... ..... If there isn't enough cranking rpms, she isn't going to start. This isn't a gasser or a glow plug diesel. The open combustion chamber engines have to be cranked fast enough so there is a minimum of 489F to 545F air inside the combustion chamber. The colder the engine the harder it is to crank over AND the higher the required cranking rpms to obtain enough temp F. What weight oil is in the crankcase? A 0W-30 would be a good place to begin. Just guessing and throwing batteries, cables, starters etc at the engine is an expensive way to maybe hit the problem. I've seen cables and connections that looked good but they were impeding the flow of electricity. Any bargain cables on there? Is the charging system making full voltage and current to charge the batteries? If the starter motor is original. It's time to replace it with a fresh 4KW starter. Even if it's still sort of working.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
mdaitc

03-18-2008 10:07:43




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-17-2008 19:06:05  
if it makes any difference, screwing in the de-stroking valve on the hydraulic pump doesn't make any difference to starting.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
jdemaris

03-18-2008 10:53:30




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-18-2008 10:07:43  
All that does is increase cranking speed. With some diesel tractors, cranking speed makes a huge difference.

Also, if somehow your hydraulic system in in perfect condtion - with not even the smallest internal leak - destroking the pump does not make much of a difference in anything.

Does your tractor crank as it should?

Also what is the history of the tractor? Did it start well when you first got it, or has it been a p*ss-poor starter forever?

As I already told you, all the 40 series tractors were known for very bad cold starting, skipping and smoking, etc. The final - and only real fix from Deere Company was special pistons to make up for the bad machining tolerances that were used when the tractor was put together new. If it later got rebuilt again, and standard pistons got put back in, it would again - start lousy.

In regard to the lack of blow-by, good compression, full power on the dyno - it all means nothing. We had rows of the tractors - brand new - that started awful - but tested perfect with a compression gauge and on the dyno.
In fact, I've had tractors with all the top piston rings broken that tested fine on the dyno.

You are dreaming if you think that somehow, a Stanadyne pump will make it start better. Now, a GOOD Stanadyne pump replacing a BAD CAV will make a difference - just as fixing the CAV will as well. And, the CAV is a better built pump.

You need to do the basics first. Have you advanced the static pump timing? If so, any difference? Have you tried turning up the fuel delivery a little bit ? (takes 10 minutes on a CAV). Have you checked the valve-lash adjustment?
Those are the most simple things to check. Once past that, it's time to check the pump delivery - or - pull the head and look closely at the pistons and cylinder walls. And also, to measure the depth of the valve-heads in the head. That is critical. If someone did a valve regrind - by resurfacing the valves and regrinding the seats, they will sit too deep in the head. Result is - good compression, good running, but lousy starting.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
buickanddeere

03-18-2008 08:30:06




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-17-2008 19:06:05  
I suspect Mike M is on the right track. Does that engine have the 4KW Bosch starter or the little 3KW unit? What is the cranking voltage measured between the cast body of the starter and the large brass post going into the starter? I"m in the process of replacing/upgrading my 1640"s batteries and cables. Incluiding a new separate chassis return cable from the batteries direct to a starter mounting bolt. Even with 5000+ hrs on untouched injector"s & pump. Last year it would start after 3-5 rotations at 32F without preheating or ether What size and age are each of the batteries in your tractor?

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Mike M

03-18-2008 10:07:19




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to buickanddeere, 03-18-2008 08:30:06  
My uncles 2640 was starting hard. He had the starter to the repair shop 2 X I think ? I looked at it and it just didn't seem to spin as good as I thought it should ? I took the starter to a fellow I have do some stuff explaining the problem and he replaced the armature and that solved that. There was something about that armature he saw the others didn't catch.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
jdemaris

03-18-2008 09:04:43




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to buickanddeere, 03-18-2008 08:30:06  
Cranking speed is the #1 culprit in any Deere with a closed-center hydraulic system.

A $5 manual pump destroker will often work wonders and sometimes do more than oversized batteries and a higher-torque starter.

With some tractors, adding a destroker acts like doubling the battery and starter capacity.

Granted, the more batteries, the higher the cranking voltage. Just a jump from 9 volts to 10 volts at cranking makes a huge difference.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
PJBROWN

03-18-2008 07:57:38




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-17-2008 19:06:05  
I have a 2840 that acted the same way yours does. I had the pump rebuilt and it did the samething. It need starter fluid at 60 degrees out side. Last spring I rebult the engine ,and head the head rebult ,and the pump rebult for a second time. It will start now at 32 outside without starting fluid.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
jdemaris

03-18-2008 06:49:25




Report to Moderator
 That is rediculous! Bad advice. in reply to mdaitc, 03-17-2008 19:06:05  
Somebody is feeding you bad information. CAV is a better quality injection pump - period.

Stanadyne/Roosmaster was the original and is the first rotary pump used by Deere ca. 1960 on 1010s and 2010s. CAV and Bosch purchased rights from Stanadyne to copy it with some improvements and use it only overseas. Later, some of those aggreements changed a bit.

Any of the pumps are designed to inject a certain amount of fuel at cranking speed - and it makes absolutley no difference if it's a Stanadyne or CAV. What is the difference is which one wears first and gives problems. A cared for CAV will outlast the Stanadyne.

Now, 2840s nad 2940s were some of the worst starting diesels Deere ever sold - we sold them new and had enless problems with them. Some old 4020s started at 10 degrees F with no heat or ether. We had new 2940s that wouldn' start at 40 degrees F. Deere had a long check-list to things to do to them - when new - in an effort to make them start as good as an older 2010s, 2020s, 4020s 4030s, etc.

I can guarantee you that your tractor has had many things done to it since it was sold. Some of the original "fixes" that rarely worked were - new transfer-pump blades in the CAV injection pump, advance the static timing 2 degrees, thinner head gasket, plane cylinder head to get valve-in-head depth .025" and .040", hydraulic pump destroker, and new graded pistons with higher top rings.

Kind of hard to tell what the story is now with your tractor - but I guarantee you the make of pump has absolutely noting to do with it - and anyone that told you that is clueless. Some of the best starting tractors we ever sold were the 50 and 55 series with CAV pumps. But, the improvement was not because of those pumps, it was due to closer assembly and machining tolerances. I will also mention - that at the same time of the starting problems with the 40 series ag tractors, we had the same cold starting problems with industrial stuff - like 350C and 450C crawlers - and they ALL had Stanadyne pumps.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
mdaitc

03-18-2008 06:25:20




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-17-2008 19:06:05  
i've adjusted the valve clearance, and when i did that, the engine responded "better" it was dogging a little, not too crisp revving it up, now it seems better.

there's no smoke on the top end of the RPM, just at the lower end. Smoke wise, it's white/grey on immediate startup, then a little more blueish for a while till warm - it doesn't burn oil.
It seems "rich" - when i am starting it, sometimes there's unburnt diesel droplets coming out of the exhaust for 5-10 secs after starting, and there seems to be too much carbon buildup in the smoke stack (15 hours on a new chrome pipe) - maybe it's a stuck metering valve in the pump?

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
44 Diesel Tech

03-18-2008 17:35:34




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-18-2008 06:25:20  
You mentioned blue/grey smoke after start up. The problem is low transfer pump pressure. (located inside rear end of inj.pump) Pump is not advancing enough at idle. To "fix" this in the interm if you do not want to spend money on pump overhaul, remove most or all relief valve shims under large fuel inlet fitting. Remove inlet line first. This will put relief valve spring tension and fuel pressure in "balance".I have done this on many unit's. Works every time. Also helps to advance pump 2degrees. (width of a dime)

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
skip33652

03-18-2008 05:32:46




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-17-2008 19:06:05  
if the valve recession is too low compression will be low engine will start hard ,will smoke when cold,but will run good and make good power and wont have blow by.Paul



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Mike M

03-18-2008 04:27:08




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-17-2008 19:06:05  
Sometimes bad starting can be a starter draging. Compare it to others to see how fast it spins the engine. I also overhauled a 2840 due to liner pitting and then it smoked like crazy ! Whites gray ? until warmed up. Luckily I talked to my pump shop guy and he said those pumps tend to get some wear insides that throws the timing off. He said it could be compensated for by adjusting the timing a wee bit. I forget which way we went ? or he could overhaul the pump. I changed the timing and all was good again. But of course I KNEW what shape the engine was in too.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
J Schwiebert

03-18-2008 03:58:31




Report to Moderator
 Re: 2840 conversion from CAV to Roosamaster injection pump in reply to mdaitc, 03-17-2008 19:06:05  
If you get a lot of white/grey type smoke when it starts I would look at other items first. Take the exhaust manifold off and see if white smoke flys out of one cylinder or all of them when you try to start it first. Then reply. J.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy