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720 D crankcase ventilation

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BLinWMi

02-12-2008 15:32:55




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I have seen pictures of several 720/730s that had upright breather pipes in the crankcase by the pony motor door. The ones I have seen were all standards with ponys. I have a 720 standard that builds up crankcase pressure and at full throttle will start to drip on the flywheel side. I was wondering if there was a serial number break that used the upright breather like the old A and B had? I would like to find one and put it on my tractor. I can take the cap off mine and the flywheel never drips, so if I can keep the pressure down it would solve the problem.

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Mike w J

02-12-2008 17:43:08




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to BLinWMi, 02-12-2008 15:32:55  
The 70 and 720/730 also have a vent in the head under the valve cover on 720/730. It is a 1/4 in hole that goes right into the intake port. On the 70 it is inder the injection pump cover and enter the same intake port only threw the back of the head. 720/730 has a plug in the back side of the head where the 70 is vented . These holes plug with crud if the tractor has set a long time . If you have broken rings those holes aren't big enough.

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Mike M

02-12-2008 18:46:24




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to Mike w J, 02-12-2008 17:43:08  
Sounds like the holes you are reffering to are the ones for the injector leakoff lines ?



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Mike w J

02-13-2008 05:44:43




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to Mike M, 02-12-2008 18:46:24  
If you have a parts book for a 70 or 720 The hole shows up on the parts pic. My book was printed nov 65 . It shows the newer head with the hole on the front side . that hole on the early head is not there but strait across on the back side of the head.



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Mike w J

02-13-2008 05:33:35




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to Mike M, 02-12-2008 18:46:24  
No they are not the injector leak off lines holes. They are right in the center of the head about 1-1/2 inchs down from the top or from the front on the 720/730 if the valve cover is off. The 70 only has one on the back side of the head the 720/730 has 2 one on the back side and 1 on the front side the 1 on the back side of the head is plugged with a pipe plug on the 720 . If you have the intake off of the head it is easy to see from the top . If the hole is plugged all crankcase gasses have to go out the pony breather. But the pony breather is intended to let fresh air into the crankcase. This is kinda like positive crankcase ventilation on a car . If the hole pluggs They can even blow the oil out of the pony crankcase .

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F-I-T

02-13-2008 07:40:25




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to Mike w J, 02-13-2008 05:33:35  
I'd sure like to see some marked up photos of these holes. If you could it would be helpful.

Frank



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Blksmok

02-13-2008 08:39:57




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to F-I-T, 02-13-2008 07:40:25  
Frank...look at the 70D parts manual on page 15-12. He's referring to the small hole between the two openings for the push rods and in the center of the four head mounting bolts (the ones that are accessed through the injection pump housing). Then look at page 15-10 and you'll see where that hole in the head will line up with the block.



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F-I-T

02-13-2008 09:31:31




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to Blksmok, 02-13-2008 08:39:57  
It's been so long since I had on apart I had forgotten about it.



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Mike M

02-13-2008 10:29:21




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to F-I-T, 02-13-2008 09:31:31  
I gotta stop by the shop on the way home and look at my books ! Curiousity is killing the cat.

Only hole in the center that comes to my mind is for the rocker arm oil pipe to go through ?



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F-I-T

02-13-2008 10:53:52




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to Mike M, 02-13-2008 10:29:21  
third party image

My page numbers are off by 2, so you might have an older book than by CD-ROM issue, but here is a composite of the two pages. Not that I like to depend on an illustrator's sketch for items pertaining to form. They sometimes miss or exaggerate details, so keep that in mind. The sketch shows two holes in block at the case end. I can't remember where they go from here. Do they merge into one? Is one oil to the block gallery, and the other the vent? I just can't recall.

Frank

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Mike M

02-13-2008 11:55:09




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to F-I-T, 02-13-2008 10:53:52  
Two on the back of block should be to feed oil. One up to the injection pumps via the short little metal tube under the pumps. And the other to a fitting that a line hooks to go up to the rocker arms which must run under the push rods to one side. Only holes where anything gets sucked into the cyl. heads I remember ? is for the 2 injector leak off lines. Later tractors have 2 dowel pins between the block and the head to hold the gasket maybe the early ones only had one in the center ? where your picture shows. That guy with a bench full of parts should be able to tell tonight. I sure as heck don't want to take mine back apart !

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Mike w J

02-13-2008 13:09:14




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to Mike M, 02-13-2008 11:55:09  
Mike the hole that frank has circled on the head is the vent hole on the 70 from that hole There is a notch or passage molded in to the head so it can suck air out of the housing around the pumps That hole goes rihgt into the square intake port of the head . The holes he has circled on the block is for oil.... ON the 720 and 730 The hole on the head that Frank has circled has a pipe plug in but it has a hole drilled clear threw the head there threw the intake port to the front side of the head where it sucks out of the valve cover. If the intake is off you can see the holes from the top

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Mike M

02-13-2008 14:52:51




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to Mike w J, 02-13-2008 13:09:14  
Mike; I read my service manual theroy of operations and it is just how you said. They even mentioned about the hole in the intake for it to get sucked in. I just could not invision this passage ? But as I was reading your latest response an image popped into my head and I think it is this. There is the hole and then milled a squiggly slot going out from each side. I think I remember this now ! Does that sound like it ?

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Mike w J

02-13-2008 15:36:03




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to Mike M, 02-13-2008 14:52:51  
Yes that is it on the 70 that squiggly slots plugs with gunk then all crankcase gasses have to go out the pony breather . The pony breather is to let fresh air into the crankcase not out . Like Isaid before it is like positive crankcase ventilation on a car.



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F-I-T

02-13-2008 16:16:22




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to Mike w J, 02-13-2008 15:36:03  
Can you get to that hole and clean it out with a wire from the top by removing the intake manifold? Or can you blow it out from the pump cavity side with air?



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Mike w J

02-13-2008 16:33:45




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to F-I-T, 02-13-2008 16:16:22  
Yes you can on a 70 with the original head take the cover above the the injection pump also then with a wire Threw the intake hole loosen gunk and blow with air it should come out around the pushrod holes in the back side of the head .If that tractor has the later head like the 720 Then just take the valve cover off and it is a strait shot to the intake port blow air or use a wire .



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Blksmok

02-14-2008 05:17:34




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to Mike w J, 02-13-2008 16:33:45  
Yes ,that hole will suck some vapors out of the pump galley area and the crankcase, but it is so small that when you have a tired, worn out diesel the blow-by will be excessive. When that happens it trys to vent out the pony engine air cleaner, the vented fill pipe and the crankshaft seals (flywheel side). If you warm the diesel engine up, take the fill cap off and notice the quantity of vapors/air coming out of that two inch pipe. The vent hole in the head is probably 1/4 inch...too much blow-by to handle.

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Mike w J

02-14-2008 06:52:32




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to Blksmok, 02-14-2008 05:17:34  
Yes that is what I have been trying to say .Did you look at the newer heads ? If someone had there head off They could take out that plug on the back side so it would have 2 vent holes . In the service manual section 60 diesel engine page 60-5 -2 Under crankcase ventilation It explains The ventilation very well. Everyone says we need a service manual. I for one never read that page before yesterday. But I knew because I just overhauled a 70 I still don't have the tin back on it.I had to replace the head . I put a 730 head /injectors /pumps /.o45 over pistons in it When I compared the heads I found the holes on The 70 head pluged with gunk. I had 3 broken rings on 1 piston It had enough blow by it would empty The pony crankcase when pulling hard . It pushed all that oil out of the breather pipe that goes from the pony crankcase to the side of the pony air cleaner.

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Blksmok

02-14-2008 08:17:26




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to Mike w J, 02-14-2008 06:52:32  
Mike..I agree with you. That hole on the backside of the head sets in a recessed goove so when the head is bolted to the block the vapors are sucked into the groove, into the 1/4 inch hole and into the intake system of the engine. There is no "communication" of that hole to a matching opening in the block. If you had slight positive crankcase pressure and this hole was plugged..opening it would help. But, like you say, if you have broken rings, worn cylinder bores and a couple of other issues ...time to open the checkbook and start fixing.

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Blksmok

02-13-2008 11:28:36




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to F-I-T, 02-13-2008 10:53:52  
Frank...I have a block and 3 heads on the work bench and I'll take a closer look at it tonight to see what goes where. I have a F1958R (early 70D's), a F3211R (late 70D's and early 720D's) and a F3511R (black dash 720D's and 730D's) so I can check to see if they're all the same in regard to that opening. I guess I never paid much attention to it in the past (usually had bigger issues). Later...



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F-I-T

02-12-2008 16:42:46




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to BLinWMi, 02-12-2008 15:32:55  
third party image

Good comments so far.

The only stand-alone factory installed vent pipe for a 720D was for those tractors that were electric start. It bolted onto one of the tin covers formerly covered by the pony engine footprint. Otherwise, on pony equipped engines, the venting takes place up from the main case, through the pony engine block, then up to and through the pony air cleaner. What you might have seen was an older "G" or "A" type vent screwed onto the oil filler nipple in the first reduction gear cover.

But....

If someone has added the vent to their pony start diesel to improve crankcase venting, it is most likely just a stop gap, short term improvement, as lack of vent capacity points directly toward excessive blow-by, and the only cure for that is rings and or pistons, i.e. returning the engine to an acceptable level of mechanical sobriety.

Sorry to say, but it sounds like your diesel needs a bit of internal work. To your immediate question, I do not see a serial break for the vent pipe, except that it showed up in the parts book when the electric start came available with the introduction of the black dash models. Since an electric start had no pony motor, there was no protected route to vent, so they added the stand alone pipe. Now, I have seen a worn-out diesel with a vent pipe plumbed into the air intake so the diesel "re-burned" the vented flow gases. It would most likely keep one from dripping oil.

HTH.

Frank

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wilamayb

02-12-2008 16:21:24




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to BLinWMi, 02-12-2008 15:32:55  
As you know, and Duane said, the diesel vents through the pony. When the diesel builds extreem excessive blow-by it can become too much volume for the normal system.

I dont think the breather you are talking about was optional on the 70/720 etc. I think they were a retrofit from one of the letter series tractors. I looked into the possibilities and found they must have been from an A or a G. I'm not sure which one since they have different part#'s and the thread size of the base is not listed in the PC.

Since I'm guessing you dont really care all that much about the appearance of this tractor I dont see any reason why you couldnt find one off of any tractor and weld the pipe fitting into the bottom of the breather regardless of original size. I'm sure the ones off the old A's are plentiful and cheap. That would certainly serve the function until you get your engine fixed.

I bet if you call enough salvage yards someone somewhere has a 70/720/730 with one of those breathers in place if you wanted one that fit perfectly.

How's everything running in MI?

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Rich Duane

02-12-2008 15:57:16




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 Re: 720 D crankcase ventilation in reply to BLinWMi, 02-12-2008 15:32:55  
Your tractor has a crankcase breather thru the cranking engine crank case and air cleaner. If you remove the air cleaner from the cranking engine and wash the complete filter and bowl in soltent and blow it out well replace the oil in the bowl with a light oil it might correct the problem. If it is an electric start tractor it has the same air cleaner behind the governer.

Rich



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