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John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum
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Fuel gauge button

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BLinWMi

12-26-2007 12:54:25




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Am wondering if there is a good source for the push button for a 720 fuel gauge? The button on my tractor was froze/rusted in the on position and I ruined it getting it free. Can these fuel gauges be set up to work all the time instead of only when the button was depressed? I have put the body of mine back in the dash with the 3 wires hooked up. I have new wiring from front to back, as well as a rebuilt genny and new VR, genny would put out almost 50 A on the test stand, but the tractor doesn't charge. Thinking maybe it is because of the fuel switch. Any ideas?

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GeorgiaHayFarmer

12-26-2007 15:09:17




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to BLinWMi, 12-26-2007 12:54:25  
BL, when and if you get a new momentary switch from Deere, make sure and open the box and check to see if it has both nuts installed. I have picked them up from across the counter and found them with only one nut and they should come with two.

Scott



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John T

12-26-2007 14:24:33




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to BLinWMi, 12-26-2007 12:54:25  
BL., the good Frankster is fixin ya up, but as an aside the reason you cant make it work alllll l the time (without modifications) like on a gas tractor is those gauges get their voltage when you turn the ignition ON but on that diesel/pony set up theres just the pony ignition n you cant leave it on obviously sooooo oo you simply push the button down to check fuel level (via batetry voltage) when shes not running,, but then once it is running the gennys ARM post supplies voltage to the gauge n she does work all the time then (when diesel is turning the genny)

You might wanna ask Frank about his famous oil pressure pony coil saver circuit!!!!!

Happy New year yall

John T

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BLinWMi

12-26-2007 15:28:26




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to John T, 12-26-2007 14:24:33  
Thanks John, I did not understand that is how the gauge worked, so it does work at all times when the diesel is running. I had been confused in thinking the gauge only works when the button was pressed. My tractor is 12 volt negative ground. I do not know if the previous owner had switched the fuel setup over to 12 volt, they had switched the pony coils and the starter solenoid, maybe they did the gauge also. When I first installed the new wiring harness, the gauge read 3/4 tank, tank was actually about half but it did read something. But like I said, the push button was rusted in. I ran the tractor for about 5 minutes after installing the wiring and all seemed ok. Till I saw smoke coming from the pony area. I had the hood off still and it was smoking bad enough I couldn't see what was causing it. I quickly unhooked the battery and found out it was coming from the tach cable, it was glowing red liking a heating element. I did not know if it was from the stuck fuel button or the genny. I have since found out the genny was bad, so I figure that somehow was the cause of the fireworks. I have had the genny rebuilt and the fuel button disabled to avoid this possibility again.

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F-I-T

12-26-2007 16:53:12




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to BLinWMi, 12-26-2007 15:28:26  
third party image

BL:

Curious how they "switched the pony coils over to 12 volts". Did they put a bigger dropping resistor on the back of the switch? Originally, the pony coils got their power while the starter was engaged directly from the starter switch using a so-called "by-pass wire". The idea was that the cranking would draw down the voltage to around 5, which is where the coils run when the engine is operating. So, if they kept that by-pass wire in place, you COULD be getting 12 volts straight through to the coils, and since I'm not aware of a 12 volt version of those little pony coils, I'd be a bit concerned. If you have looked that over already, maybe no problem, or maybe they used 12 volt automotive can type coils.

On the gauge, there were a couple of reasons it operates the way that it does. One, like John said, the "ignition" switch is off during diesel operation, so that would not work as a source of power. Another fix would have been to run it through an oil pressure normally open switch (like they used for hour meters on A/B/G etc.) so that it would only read while the diesel engine was developing oil pressure. But the real reason as explained to me years back by an old, old, no longer with us Deere dealer service manager, and partner in the old dealership was that in the early days of diesel, people really feared running out of diesel and having to re-bleed the injection system. Also, at 20 gallons of on-board fuel, and wide open fuel consumption on a 720 of no more than 2 3/4 or 3 gal per hour, and a whole lot less on loafing jobs, you could forget just when the last time you fueled up was. So, they made provision for a way to check the fuel level before you went to all the trouble to attempt to crank the diesel if was nearly out of fuel. Whichever is the true answer, it operates so that a momentary press with the engine off powers the gauge from a wire running from the ammeter to the push switch, and then once the generator cut-out switches to closed, it gets its power from the VR cut out circuit.

I'll have to think hard about where the negative ground gets you as to the fuel gauge. I'd guess you would have to switch the wires, but by golly I can't say without some research.

So, to make the gauge run on the VR but not have it's power supplied from the pressing in of the button, connect the wire that runs from the fuel gauge to the switch, to the black wire that is connected to the switch, but comes from the generator. Typically this black wire would be the closest to the dash panel, which is why it is connected at all times since the switch when relaxed, sits back away from the panel due to spring pressure. I would connect these two with a light jumper and if all is well, then connect them for good. Tape to insulate. You can let the other wire on the rusted button switch if you like, or discard it unitl you replace the switch at a later date, or let one end dangle and tape it off securely. I think that this is the wire that caused the smoke.

Here's a bit of a picture...

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John T

12-26-2007 18:33:54




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to F-I-T, 12-26-2007 16:53:12  
Frank, regarding the fuel gauge polarity issue, without having a gauge to look at, my "best guess" would be its a galvo type (i.e. polarity sensitive) instead of the bimetallic heater type which dont care what direct the current flows through it (it still heats n deflects). Assuming its not stuck, if he passes a magnet by its face n the needle moves accordingly its a polarity sensitive galvo type, then Ima thinkin sort of like an ammeter (and as you suspicioned) the wires need reversed. This is something I should really know but I dont have any gauges handy to look at. Ive seen those 12 volt pony conversions with all sorts of hobbled up ignitions be it 12 volt automotive coils or an external ballast, no tellin what he has.

John T

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F-I-T

12-26-2007 19:09:01




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to John T, 12-26-2007 18:33:54  
John:

It has been a long time ago since I had one apart, though I have a bad one on my tractor that might come on out tomorrow, I seem to remember that it has two coils, one on either side of the movement, FWIW. The sender is used as the ground. As the fuel level varies, the resistance to ground changes, and the movement changes. Power comes down from the button switch which comes via the VR or ammeter, depending on the generator cuo out state. Now I can't remember right now if '0' ohms is full or empty, but it's a 30 ohm full scale movement. And it was an AC Delco gauge set. Now that I think on it, I'm pretty sure that '0' is "FULL".

HTH

Frank

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John T

12-27-2007 06:33:56




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to F-I-T, 12-26-2007 19:09:01  
Theres no doubt with BOTH our heads together we will finger this all out. Its about gotta be a galvo type gauge where current thru a coil causes a magnetic field North/South polarity n deflects the needle accordingly. If you have a non stuck gauge handy pass a magnet across its face n it ought to make the needle move right???? If its a bi metal heat sensitive n operated gauge either current direction causes heat n needle defelction.

As far as Empty or Full and what the gauge reads, it takes voltage then current thru the gauge then thru the sender (variable resistor) to ground to deflect from empty over to to full sooooo oo Ima thinkin when the ignition is off n theres no gauge voltage or current she reads EMPTY right??? Then when on but shes empty theres a high sender resistance, so even when on she agains reads EMPTY TANK. NOW I FORGET MY POINT LOL With voltage applied to the gauge if you dead ground (i.e. 0 ohms) its other to sender output terminal she ought to deflect to FULL TANK but when the switch is off (no gauge input voltage) orrrrr rrrrr rrrrr the senders resistance is maxxed out, she dont deflect n again reads EMPTY TANK

SO TO HELP YOUR MEMORY QUESTION, O OHMS (like a dead grounded gauge to sender terminal) IS FULL TANK WE AGREE, GOTTA BE RIGHT THEN LOL

NEXT Im not sure Im following your discussion regarding the condition/state of the Voltage Regulators Cutout Relay as far as powering up the gauge when the diesel is turning the generator. Of course n as we both well know once the gennys voltage rises to a set voltage level higher then the battery the relay latches closed so the BAT terminal is effectively connected to the ARM/GEN terminal which also feeds voltage to the gauge via the push selector switch in question. As the gauge selector switch when shes NOT depressed needs the gennys voltage to operate, its fed from the ARM/GEN VR terminal, and if the genny is cranking out any voltage it will work REGARDLESS if the cutout relay ever closes or not as it should then.

I think were meaning the same thing just wording n approaching it differently (imagine that lol). I think of it solely as receiving genny output voltage from the gennys or VR's ARM terminal and it will regardless if the cutout relay ever works or closes or not. Of course when its voltage rises to feed the gauge that also happens to be when the relay should be closing so one can think along those terms...although its still the GEN/ARM VR terminal connection n its voltage thats critical as I view it.

Oh well, have a good one Frankster n disect that gauge if you get a chance n post us pics maybe??

Ol John T and all

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F-I-T

12-27-2007 07:28:05




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to John T, 12-27-2007 06:33:56  
>>>NEXT Im not sure Im following your discussion regarding the condition/state of the Voltage Regulators Cutout Relay as far as powering up the gauge when the diesel is turning the generator. Of course n as we both well know once the gennys voltage rises to a set voltage level higher then the battery the relay latches closed so the BAT terminal is effectively connected to the ARM/GEN terminal which also feeds voltage to the gauge via the push selector switch in question. As the gauge selector switch when shes NOT depressed needs the gennys voltage to operate, its fed from the ARM/GEN VR terminal, and if the genny is cranking out any voltage it will work REGARDLESS if the cutout relay ever closes or not as it should then. >>>

Okay....but cut-out side or voltage regulation side, it is a contact that closes, right? Otherwise the gauge would read at all times, which is should not. Sorry if I mispoke regarding which set of contacts was used....

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F-I-T

12-26-2007 14:56:47




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to John T, 12-26-2007 14:24:33  
Neighbor brought a short Christmas visitor over to sit on the 70 and apparently he bumped the switch on as he climbed down. I was working on something else across the yard. I waved good bye and went to the house. This morning the dash light was glowing, and the Optima battery still had plenty of juice to fire the pony up. Without that switch, I'd have likely lost one of not both coils. Again....

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F-I-T

12-26-2007 13:00:09




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to BLinWMi, 12-26-2007 12:54:25  
The button is available from Deere. It's a SPDT, with a pair normally closed and a pair normally open. You can wire it so that it only gets power from the VR if you want, so the gauge will only read when the generator is charging and the VR cut out is closed.

Gas or Diesel?

Frank



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BLinWMi

12-27-2007 14:01:37




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to F-I-T, 12-26-2007 13:00:09  
stopped and ordered the push button today, didn't have one in stock. Comes in handy havin the dealer just across the road from the house.
Thanks again for the help and info Frank.



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F-I-T

12-27-2007 16:21:15




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to BLinWMi, 12-27-2007 14:01:37  
No problem. Maybe start a new thread when you get it in and let us know how you made out!



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F-I-T

12-26-2007 14:34:17




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to THE SMOOTHED DEERES, 12-26-2007 14:05:28  
Everyone achieves firsts a few time in their lives. Most just get used to disappointment.

I suggest that you either help this fellow with his problem or step aside.

Have you met Kim?



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F-I-T

12-26-2007 15:50:38




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to THE SMOOTHED DEERES, 12-26-2007 15:16:07  
>>>lol Sry I'm leaving >>>

So, ?



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F-I-T

12-26-2007 16:21:45




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to THE SMOOTHED DEERES, 12-26-2007 16:13:26  
Best of luck.



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BLinWMi

12-26-2007 13:08:45




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to F-I-T, 12-26-2007 13:00:09  
It is a diesel with pony but 12 volt. I have a wiring harness from AgriServices installed, what would I need to do to make the guage work all the time? Thanks Frank, your knowledge has helped me before and is much appreciated.



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F-I-T

12-26-2007 13:14:27




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 Re: Fuel gauge button in reply to BLinWMi, 12-26-2007 13:08:45  
Do you have a 12 volt gauge? If you went from 6 volt to 12, you'll need a 12 volt gauge....12 volts might have blown the old one. Same sender is used in the tank.



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F-I-T

12-26-2007 13:14:57




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 and... in reply to F-I-T, 12-26-2007 13:14:27  
still positive ground?



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