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Question Regarding Cast Iron Radiator Restoration

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Joe Lee

10-26-2007 11:23:37




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I removed the radiator from my 1935 A to replace the core. While it was separated, I had the upper and lower tanks sandblasted. Is there something I should coat the inside with before I put it back together (to keep it from rusting again?) Thanks is advance for your response. Joe Lee




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F-I-T

10-27-2007 06:17:36




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 Re: Question Regarding Cast Iron Radiator Restoration in reply to Joe Lee, 10-26-2007 11:23:37  
third party image

Here is a few shots of my 70D radiator, which I re-cored. Your "A" is a bit smaller, and so it's a little easier to handle. This one slipped off the edge of the skid when I was tippping it up, and I got scrunched on my big toe but good! Be careful! They are pretty heavy and really awkward. I cheat and use a hoist whenever I can.

I cleaned these parts with a combination of sandblaster and electrolysis. I like to treat bare cast iron, especially that which has been sandblasted, with phosphoric acid. This will kill any red rust that has decided to form, dissolve any silicates from the sand that are imbedded in the cast surface, and leave behind a thin, but noticeable, phosphate coating that helps to prevent further rusting. Modern Ethylene Glycol antifreeze products have soluble oils added which serve as rust inhibitors and water pump lubricants, and this prevents lost rusting, but a little help from a layer of phosphate can't hurt! Before I tear one down that I pretty much know will get a new core, I put a couple of quarts of phosphoric acid in the radiator and let it circulate and work for day. This loosens up old rust flakes in the head and block and seems to get the system overall cleaner before teardown and ready for the new radiator.

I like to fill any pits on flanges with a suitable epoxy, such as JB Weld, then grind the flanges flat. You will be surprised how flat you can get the tanks surfaces using nothing more than a nice flat piece of concrete.

On radiator stop-leak products, I disagree on their broad application as if they only lie there inert until called upon to spring into action and move toward on small leak. Silicate or Zinc Chip, epoxy or goo, they droll and spool and ooze around through the very same radiator core tubes that you are all so protective of, and should be, since you have no water pump on that "A" to speed the flow. After all this work, including a new core, brushable Permatex on every gasket and flange, "Nev-R-Ceez" in the pocket threads, if I didn't have a unit that would hold back just gravity based coolant, with no pressure, without adding back some of the same core-clogging goo that I was trying to remove in the first place, then I don't think I'd consider myself much of a craftsman. No manufacturer that I know ever put stop leak in their cooling systems from the factory. If you repaired it correctly, why should you have to? What's next? "Here's your new tires sir. We had to add Fix-a-Flat to them, but they're holding air...for now."

Using a stop leak product does not come without a price and some risk. I've seen more more harm than good done in their name. I would at the very least wait until I had a leak before I considered adding "stuff". I can't view it as a preventative. MHO

Frank

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Mike M

10-27-2007 09:01:28




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 Re: Question Regarding Cast Iron Radiator Restoration in reply to F-I-T, 10-27-2007 06:17:36  
Cadillac may of put stop leak in from the factory and they for sure recommend adding more at every coolant change. GM has some kinda pellets made from spices.



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F-I-T

10-28-2007 09:47:27




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 Re: Question Regarding Cast Iron Radiator Restoration in reply to Mike M, 10-27-2007 09:01:28  
But that's in a system engineered from materials in todays world. My wife is considering a new STS and if they have to put a sealer in their radiator to keep a $50,000 car on the road, I'm ain;t buyin' it.

In the late 60's, Zerex placed a sealer additive in their antifreeze product and the in the TV commercial the guy would punch three, probably 3 mil holes in a pressiurzed radiator, and the holes would magically seal. Later that summer, our local radiator shop guy bought a new boat because he said "Since Zerex started plugging up radiators on muscle cars, my business is up five fold...."

If you can't assemble a radiaotr to hold back gravity only coolant, you should farm it out.

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P Browning

10-26-2007 17:31:32




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 Re: Question Regarding Cast Iron Radiator Restoration in reply to Joe Lee, 10-26-2007 11:23:37  
Joe Lee -- Coating the inside is optional, but many will say it's not needed because permanent antifreeze (the traditional green stuff)already contains rust inhibitors. I read with curiosity what sgtbull had to say - using a fuel tank liner in the radiator tanks! No opinion on that one, but if it works, go for it.

As for sealing, Below is an excerpt from a book on JD-H restoration you may find helpful. This is the critical part of bringing a radiator back to new life. (PatB)
----- ----- -
Radiator Final Assembly -- Establish a clean work area for final assembly of the radiator. Usually, these decades-old castings no longer have smooth interface surfaces. Therefore, apply a non-harending sealant such as Permatex # 3 Aircraft gasket sealer and cleanup is a breeze with mineral spirits so long as you do it within the first hour. This compound sells for about $5 for a small can at NAPA stores. Use these compounds sparingly. Another solution enjoyed by many is to use adhesive-backed cork gasketing between core and tank sections. Check at an auto parts store or your local radiator shop.

All of the 5/16-18 bolts and studs should be renewed. Clean and inspect 3/8-16 cap screws; renew as needed; if there is any doubt, renew. Apply anti-seize to all threads. Do not apply massive torque to those fasteners. Draw them up as equally as possible. Observe that there are many fasteners decreasing a need for lots of torque. The 3/8 pieces may be drawn up quite tight; they along with the sides form the frame for the entire assembly. Once assembled, a final go-around on all fasteners is wise, but not drawn so tight as to warp the bolt straps. Massive torque is not needed! See radiator fastener set analysis below. Cooling System Sealing -- Once the whole cooling system is reinstalled on the tractor and considered serviceable, the entire system should be sealed. If temperature gauge is not yet installed, install a dummy plug (1/2" NPT) in the upper water pipe where the gauge probe & adaptor normally goes. K&W Block Seal is one brand of sealer that is popular and effective. Always seal before adding permanent antifreeze. Regardless of your choice of brand, it's important to follow manufacturer's instructions. ++++

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Mike M

10-26-2007 17:31:17




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 Re: Question Regarding Cast Iron Radiator Restoration in reply to Joe Lee, 10-26-2007 11:23:37  
I have not put anything in mine for fear of it coming loose. I do keep a 50/50 antifreeze mix in all of them. I also cut my own gaskets out of thicker material than JD sells so they seal better. Resurface the tanks sealing surfaces if really nasty too. I aslo use some sealer on the gaskets too. Then new bolts and new cores should long outlast me.



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Kirk in Texas

10-27-2007 05:01:59




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 Re: Question Regarding Cast Iron Radiator Restoration in reply to Mike M, 10-26-2007 17:31:17  
I have a '52 A and the top tank sealing surface is badly eroded. I think Permatex would seal it, but was wondering if it could be built up with a liquid steel type product or an epoxy base substance. I have used a product made by Devcon that worked well, but this is my first go 'round with a tractor. When I tore it down, it looked like someone had used some sort of sealer on the eroded area before. It chipped off with a screwdriver and small hammer. What would you recommend short of another tank?

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F-I-T

10-27-2007 06:29:37




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 Re: Question Regarding Cast Iron Radiator Restoration in reply to Kirk in Texas, 10-27-2007 05:01:59  
Kirk:

Is it eroded completely across from edge to edge? If it is, you might be safer with some brass on that, and then have it shaved, belt sanded, or even milled like Mike suggested. If it is not eroded all the way across, and you still have at least the outer "edge", I have had good success using Devcon Plastic Steel, but just as much luck using JB Weld, but clean the surface as good as you can first. Any red rust stuck under the epoxy in the pit will continue to rust and to erode. I like to prime areas like that with PPG DP-40 Epoxy primer before using the epoxy filler so I know the pit will never see moisture.

My $ .02

Frank

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Kirk in Texas

10-28-2007 11:25:29




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 Re: Question Regarding Cast Iron Radiator Restoration in reply to F-I-T, 10-27-2007 06:29:37  
Frank, Mike, Thanks for the info. The outer edges are still smooth and straight. The erosion is more from the bolt holes inward. Thats why I thought of filling it back in with the Devcon. I think it would hold with the right sealer and gaskets, but I hope to get it right the first time.



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Mike M

10-27-2007 05:22:50




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 Re: Question Regarding Cast Iron Radiator Restoration in reply to Kirk in Texas, 10-27-2007 05:01:59  
I have had several resurfaced at my local auto machine shop. They have a giant belt sander made for alum. heads and it works great for these hard to hold pieces. Some have even used the older rotory broaches like on cast iron heads.



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Gurneejoe

10-26-2007 16:51:29




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 Re: Question Regarding Cast Iron Radiator Restoration in reply to Joe Lee, 10-26-2007 11:23:37  
First of all, I recommend using hardening permatex on the gaskets when reassembling. I have read that Pat Browning does this and I did also and it works really well and cleanup of excess sealer is easy with regular rubbing alcohol. I have read that coating the tanks isn't really necessary especially since permanent antifreeze is available. In the old days the system was drained at the end of the day if it was cold weather and regular old hard well water was the coolant of choice. Another recommendation I have read but haven't tried yet (just starting major reassembly now) is to use two bottles of water pump lubricant/sealer upon initial startup to coat the system.

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sgtbull

10-26-2007 16:23:17




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 Re: Question Regarding Cast Iron Radiator Restoration in reply to Joe Lee, 10-26-2007 11:23:37  
I coated my tanks w/ regular old gas tank sealer. The purple stuff. That was 8 years ago, and you look in the radiator and it hasn't got a speck of rust in tanks. I did it while it was disassembled of course, and did the upper and lower water pipes while I was at it. I would not recommend doing the block, as it may affect heat conduction.



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