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Best way to kill 720 D?

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BLinWMi

08-16-2007 21:21:51




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Been wondering, what is the best method to kill a 2 cyl diesel? I have the manuals and know what it says but it seems that the best way would be to decompress the engine at low idle. As I understand it, this would avoid ever having flywheel problems.
Other question is what is the best way to kill the pony? Once again, I know the book says to shut off fuel and run till carb is empty. But it seems like that is a good way to forget about shutting off the ign switch and frying the coils. I have been just killing the pony by the ign switch and then shutting off the fuel. Can or will this hurt anything? I know the procedures are in the manual for a reason but wondered if maybe they aren't the "best" way to do it. What say ya'll?

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G/MAN

08-19-2007 16:22:09




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 Re: Best way to kill 720 D? in reply to BLinWMi, 08-16-2007 21:21:51  
Decompressing the big engine at shutdown is completely unnecessary. Some people tend to overthink these simple old machines. The stresses that the crankshaft and flywheel see when coasting down against compression after the fuel is shut off are nothing compared to what's occurring during operation. Flywheel hardware should be checked and properly torqued periodically regardless of how the tractor is used or shut off. The main engine is not being "starved for fuel" when it is shutdown by cutting the fuel flow - pretty much all diesels are shut off by stopping the flow of fuel to the injectors, after all. Not having unburned charges of diesel fuel in the cylinders diluting the oil that remains on the walls and rings is actually a good thing. As for the pony, that would depend on how often you use the tractor. If it's used daily, I would do just as you are - kill the engine with the ignition, then shut off the fuel to the carburetor. No sense in running the carb completely dry if the engine will be started again in a few hours or the next day. If it will sit for long periods, then it's probably better to not have the carburetor sitting there full of gasoline that will go stale and cause problems.

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James Howell

08-17-2007 11:06:11




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 Re: Best way to kill 720 D? in reply to BLinWMi, 08-16-2007 21:21:51  
I shut down my pony by turning off the gas off and then switch the ignition off.

I replaced the missing �red� dash indicator light and installed a new ignition/light switch.

Red dash light helps prevent �senior moment� from forgetting about shutting off the ignition switch.

A previous owner used some �farmer tech� and installed/mounted a separate coil for each spark plug.

It works so I don�t plan to fix it.

I shut down my 70D by pulling the throttle stop and closing the throttle.

Shutting down �Big John� is not one of my favorite things; hate to see the big tractor �starve� for fuel.

Hope this helps.

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msb

08-17-2007 05:45:16




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 Re: Best way to kill 720 D? in reply to BLinWMi, 08-16-2007 21:21:51  
Using the pedal as you suggest would leave raw unburned fuel in the cylinders---not good. Pull out the stop and the throttle lever back like the book says.That way all the fuel is burned up.



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Mike M

08-17-2007 04:53:34




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 Re: Best way to kill 720 D? in reply to BLinWMi, 08-16-2007 21:21:51  
If you do chose to decompress ( I do )do not do it until after the fuel is cut off and it is starting to die on it's own or else you may burn your valves.

I suspose if you do not run the pony out of gas then it is possible for it to slosh out of the carb. and end up in the cylinders and dilute the oil too. F-I-T had posted many many times about how to wire in a oil pressure activated ignition cut off to save the coils.

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wilamayb

08-17-2007 15:57:03




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 Re: Best way to kill 720 D? in reply to Mike M, 08-17-2007 04:53:34  
Do we know if F-I-T is still on the right side of the grass? I'm beginning to think I need to send him a get well card!



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Bob

08-16-2007 21:45:34




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 Re: Best way to kill 720 D? in reply to BLinWMi, 08-16-2007 21:21:51  
I'm NOT going to argue with those who say to decompress them, but have some REAL WORLD experience with engines that were NEVER "babied" at shutdown.

I grew up around an 830 and a couple of 730's.

The diesels were simply shut down by pulling the throttle stop, and closing the throttle.

NO decompressing, EVER. NEVER had a problem, or a loose flywheel.

And, this was on tractors with thousands of hours on them, doing tillage work.

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Bob

08-16-2007 21:45:30




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 Re: Best way to kill 720 D? in reply to BLinWMi, 08-16-2007 21:21:51  
I'm NOT going to argue with those who say to decompress them, but have some REAL WORLD experience with engines that were NEVER "babied" at shutdown.

I grew up around an 830 and a couple of 730's.

The diesels were simply shut down by pulling the throttle stop, and closing the throttle.

NO decompressing, EVER. NEVER had a problem, or a loose flywheel.

And, this was on tractors with thousands of hours on them, doing tillage work.

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Bob

08-16-2007 21:45:29




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 Re: Best way to kill 720 D? in reply to BLinWMi, 08-16-2007 21:21:51  
I'm NOT going to argue with those who say to decompress them, but have some REAL WORLD experience with engines that were NEVER "babied" at shutdown.

I grew up around an 830 and a couple of 730's.

The diesels were simply shut down by pulling the throttle stop, and closing the throttle.

NO decompressing, EVER. NEVER had a problem, or a loose flywheel.

And, this was on tractors with thousands of hours on them, doing tillage work.

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95CS

08-17-2007 04:35:10




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 Re: Best way to kill 720 D? in reply to Bob, 08-16-2007 21:45:29  
Amen to that!! Where some of these tales get started is beyond me. The forces that act on the flywheel/crankshaft are far more severe when running than upon shutdown. There's probably no harm in hitting the decompression lever/pedal once the throttle has been closed and the fuel shut off, but like you, ran them for thousands of hours the way you describe and had no trouble.



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wilamayb

08-17-2007 16:15:32




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 Re: Best way to kill 720 D? in reply to 95CS, 08-17-2007 04:35:10  
So, 95CS (corn special?) I had a 105 corn special. Where did you receive your engineering degree?

Down to the discussion I think if you put strain gauges on that flywheel you would see that there is more strain upon shutdown than idle, and certainly more than WOT. What causes the problem is the engine bouncing several times off of TDC (back and forth).

For an example.... pretend you are lying down on a merry-go-round. Pretend that something is spinning you in a circle for several minutes. Now pretend that the merry-go-round suddenly changed directions several times in just a couple of seconds. It would hurt a little would it not?

So the problem is the torsional motion in both directions in a short amount of time that causes the problems. The only thing that might be worse than the shutdown would be a dead hard, cold stop when that rotary cutter hits a stump and kills the engine in a finger snap. Ever seen a lawnmower hit a stump? Sheared the key in the flywheel didn�t it?

Another example�. Ever used an old corn sheller? The kind you have to turn with a handle and push the cobs in the hopper in the top? We had one at one point that was worn out (like everything else at my home). It worked fine as long as you turned it up slow and kept a good steady spin on it. It would even take a jerk or two in the right direction, but if you ever jerked it in the opposite direction it was going to jump the cogs. A jerk back and forth while it was at a dead stop was out of the question. The sheller would not turn at all. If you let spooled it up and let it coast to a nice feathered stop a problem was never created.

Most likely no one would have a problem if they only used those flywheel bolts once, but since the guy that last opened mine up was most likely a tight wad and didn�t buy new bolts I'll keep using that decompression lever and cross my fingers that my flywheel never comes loose. I'll never be able to look back and say "I should have pulled the decompression lever when I shut that thing down" Will I?

I�m not trying to get your panties in a wad, but it seems as though you are always making a snide remark in someone�s post. The comments don�t usually encourage or give helpful information it�s much better to engage someone�s brain to think logically than to speak condescendingly to them. They learn to think for themselves. As the old saying goes �give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed a man for life.� If you do have a good working knowledge of tractors and equipment why not help others with it?

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BLinWMi

08-17-2007 23:54:43




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 Re: Best way to kill 720 D? in reply to wilamayb, 08-17-2007 16:15:32  
Thanks Will, You said what I was thinking much better. It is almost laughable to think a moving object is under its highest stress while in continous movement. It is obvious that the engine that is allowed to coast to a stop is enduring much less stress on its components than an engine that endures the whiplash caused by coming up on compression without enough force to make one more revolution. And since air is compressable but pushes back, when the engine can not turn past TDC, the compressed air attempting to return itself to atmospheric pressure, must cause a great deal of stress putting everthing in reverse rotation so quickly. I really didn't expect guys to get so carried away by my question, seems maybe some of the guys need a few Midol, a person can buy them in Canada I think. I know enough about the science of an internal combustion engine to know how I kill both the engine I asked about really won't hurt them, just was asking why the method in the printed material is the better way. I had never really thought about cutting the fuel and then decompressing, didn't know I had enough hands to do it. I only decompress mine while it is at the slowest idle possible. I still don't buy that the small amount of raw fuel left in the cylinder could hurt anything. When I shut off my 60 or 70, it never seemed to hurt them shutting off the ignition while the motor continued to turn several revs drawing in raw fuel that does not get ignited. But I get the idea. So, now that I have learned all that ya'll have to share about how to/ or not to according to some kill the diesel, can it hurt the pony by having the float bowl retain fuel between starts? I don't know how much your dad had time to play with the pony but when I do run the carb dry, the pony turns for a good 15 seconds or better before it fires. So to avoid the starter running so long, I kill the pony with the ign switch and let the carb bowl remain full. It starts like a dream this way. Is there anything that can really be hurt by doing so? I am not terrible familiar with these so may not be thinking of something. I just know that by killing the pony the way I do, it always starts quickly and I never have to worry about getting forgetful and frying the coils.
Any other thought? And for crying out loud guys, if ya can't be nice, don't respond. Most of what you respond is opinion, and lessening someone else because they don't agree with your opinion is a little below us.

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wilamayb

08-18-2007 04:47:02




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 Re: Best way to kill 720 D? in reply to BLinWMi, 08-17-2007 23:54:43  
You are right about the small amount of fuel that enters the combustion chamber while at idle. It would require a "whole bunch" of shutdowns before you ever noticed it in your crankcase oil. I'm thinking then you would have to smell to know it was there. The real problem is the "washing" of the cylinders.

A harsh example of cylinder washing is when the governor ring breaks in a 4020 injector pump and the engine revs to uncontrolled WOT. I have seen an example of the piston rings breaking and scarring the sleeves. The pistons actually locked up the engine from friction before the bottom end gave out. The owner looked at the pistons and sleeves and said "you know I thought I heard it squealing" I figured at that time he was hearing the fan belt, but it is possible that he actually heard those pistons squealing.


The only problem associated with leaving the carb bowl full is that the fuel in the bowl has the potential to enter the pony intake manifold whenever the tractor bounces across a bump. It of course ends up on top of the pistons and then into the pony crankcase.

Have you tried turning your gas on a couple seconds earlier to give the bowl time to fill before you try to start? I think your tractor is a green dash so it does not have that oil pressure activated fuel shut-off for the pony. Without this shut-off the gas should be able to feed anytime you have the valve unscrewed to the on position. It takes a couple seconds to refill that bowl. Give it a try it may or may not help with the restart after you turn the gas off.

I never turn my gas off either. I dont do a whole lot of field work with mine, but even when I do I have never smelled gas in my pony oil. My pony tractor is a black dash, so it has that oil pressure controlled gas shut-off for the pony, so I do have a safety for not filling the crankcase from the tank. If I was in your condition I think I would cut the gas off with the valve to prevent all the gas in the tank from entering the pony if the float needle does not seat in its spot. If you wish you could kill the pony before doing so to keep the bowl full for an easier start, but I think you can get that figured out as well with letting the bowl fill before you start turning the pony over.

Good luck in whatever you do with it!!!

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BLinWMi

08-18-2007 05:09:05




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 Re: Best way to kill 720 D? in reply to wilamayb, 08-18-2007 04:47:02  
I may have misspoken, I do turn off the fuel valve to the pony just seconds after the engine dies, I would not want to take the chance of the needle not seating properly and flooding the pony. Part of my whole problem may be that fuel line, I have replaced it since I got it home, I replaced it with a hose about 4 inches longer than the one that was on it so the door could open all the way. The tank just does not seem to gravity feed well, I have tried draining the carb float bowl and it takes quite a while for fuel to refill the bowl. Actually the only way I have been able to get it to refill the float bowl quickly was by adding a little lung power to the tank. Like I said, that may well be because of the fuel line not being the correct one. Your dad didn't think it was getting enough fuel to run at full r's. I must have fixed what ever was causing that because now when I run my hand tach on it, it turns 6400 on run position. I still need to slow it down a bit for safety. Thanks for the help

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wilamayb

08-18-2007 06:04:38




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 Re: Best way to kill 720 D? in reply to BLinWMi, 08-18-2007 05:09:05  
Yes, I belive that is fast enough. LOL!!! I dont really have any advise for the fuel line. They always taught me in school that water runs down the hill. A wise old man once told me that "$hi% dont run uphill" So... I dont know why your carb bowl would not be filling unless it is having to run uphill (I dont really know how that could be happening).



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buickanddeere

08-18-2007 07:05:16




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 Re: Best way to kill 720 D? in reply to wilamayb, 08-18-2007 06:04:38  
Starting engines were built with aluminum rods running directly on the crankshaft. Works fine when lubricated with oil. However when the quart of crankcase lube gets diluted. Either by choking during startup, running cold or by fuel bowl slosh. Operators tend to forget starting engine oil changes. One reason as they don't read the manual to know how to drain the oil.The other is cheap. As well those people who don't do anything about the white/foam/milkshake in the starting engine crankcase. They will also be rebuilding the engine because they didn't spend a few bucks on a new water pump seal. If the gasoline shut off isn't closed. Fuel will keep flowing from the tank into the carb to keep refilling the float bowl. It isn't a whole lot of work to shut off the starting engines gasoline as soon as the diesel starts. Or to turn the valve on immediately being seated on the tractor before startup. As for "good enough"? It's not a bad habit to "do things right". I suppose it's ok for aircraft pilots or mechanics, medical personal, chemical industry workers or nuclear industry workers. To say " good enough", "doesn't matter" or "it's old anyways". As for poking fun at people? When somebody is standing there asking for it with a sign saying "kick me" on their back. Is it any surprise if somebody hoofs them one.

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Chris in MD

08-16-2007 21:28:54




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 Re: Best way to kill 720 D? in reply to BLinWMi, 08-16-2007 21:21:51  
As for the pony, I do a little of both of what you said. I'd turn the gas off while running, wait about 30 seconds, and then just flip the ignition off. I never directly clutch-kill the diesel engine. I just pull back the throttle and decompress it, easing in the clutch just a little on a high gear IF needed.



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Bob

08-16-2007 21:47:59




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 Chris... in reply to Chris in MD, 08-16-2007 21:28:54  
WHY don't you adjust the throttle linkage so the engine stops as it's supposed to, when the throttle stop is pulled, and the throttle is closed???

There should NEVER be need to "kill" it by loading it with the clutch/transmission.



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buickanddeere

08-17-2007 06:45:34




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 Re: Chris... in reply to Bob, 08-16-2007 21:47:59  
I have to wonder where these people come from??? They stop the diesel with the decompression instead of pulling the fuel rack to zero which ends fuel injection? How they ever shut down a 70D that doesn't have a separate decompression lever? I'll bet they never pull the decompression in the starting proceedure when it's supposed to be used. Pulling the decompression only saves the ring gear. The starter pinion doesn't engage in the same spot every time. The starting engine has it's fuel valve shut off and idled back as soon as the diesel fires. It's ignition is shut off about 30 seconds later after a quick look over and around the tractor after startup.

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Kemper

08-17-2007 18:40:30




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 Re: Chris... in reply to buickanddeere, 08-17-2007 06:45:34  
I have to wonder how buickanddeere comes up with some of his answers to these posts,the decompression pedal is so you can get the engine spinning over,not to save the ring gear, also it does not hurt to decompress after you pull the fuel lever back during shutdown,i have seen lots of people do it and i've been around 2 cylinders forever and own 2 730's myself,anytime that flywheel rocks and changes direction that fast...That my friend,is torque...and thats why they decompress...

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randy hall

08-17-2007 19:40:10




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 Re: Chris... in reply to Kemper, 08-17-2007 18:40:30  
kemper, i am not the president of the fan club of the guy that likes john deeres and buick's but he means you save the ring gear if you use the decompression lever to stop the tractor instead of letting it stop under compression and go bang bang bang until it stops in the same place every time. a couple years ago i replaced the ring gear on my 720 because of the past owners shutting it off under compression.

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Chris in MD

08-17-2007 08:41:16




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 Re: Chris... in reply to buickanddeere, 08-17-2007 06:45:34  
What's the big deal? I'll eventually get around to adjusting the throttle. NO harm has been done in the year of having a loose throttle lever.

IN FACT, the tractor is a worn out pile of junk. I'm surprised the diesel actually runs. It genuinely needs a front to back overhaul.

If I fixed it all up, I would shut it down the right way.

I know it's not exactly standard operator procedure, but then again, it ISN'T YOUR tractor, is it?

"where do these people come from"... sounds as if you're calling everyone an idiot when they don't do just ONE THING RIGHT.

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AW Puller

08-17-2007 16:05:10




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 Re: Chris... in reply to Chris in MD, 08-17-2007 08:41:16  
Ever think how your tractor got to the condition of "worn out pile of junk"? Just because it still runs doesnt mean you havent caused damage or needlessly increased wear on engine components.



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Bob

08-17-2007 10:38:11




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 Re: Chris... in reply to Chris in MD, 08-17-2007 08:41:16  
Chris,

You seem to have all the answers, and be a "perfectionist" in other posts you make. We're just "holding you to the same standard of excellance" in this thread! Stop being MEAN to the poor old tractor!

Just to refresh your memory:

Link

http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttalk&th=567691



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55 50

08-17-2007 08:24:35




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 Re: Chris... in reply to buickanddeere, 08-17-2007 06:45:34  
buickanddeere, Your first statement says it well and I agree with all your comments.



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Chris in MD

08-17-2007 08:43:43




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 Re: Chris... in reply to 55 50, 08-17-2007 08:24:35  
I can see you like playing follow the leader.



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buickanddeere

08-17-2007 09:42:50




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 Re: Chris... in reply to Chris in MD, 08-17-2007 08:43:43  
So Chris. You are saying it's fine to do things *ss backwards? To have no interest in finding out the correct way. And to find a reason to not perform a task the proper way when you do find out? New or worn out, why beat a machine with stress that will shorten it's operating life?



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