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John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum

Lugging down 70 diesel

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BLinWMi

06-01-2007 11:33:55

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Am looking at buying a 70 diesel and wondered how real the risk was of lugging these tractors down so far they start running backwards? I had heard that this was a issue with the 70 that was fixed on the 720 by a change in the cam. I have known several guys that ran 70 diesels and have never heard of one doing it but just was wondering how common it is. I know the answer is never lug it down that far but you know how pwople are with new toys. Is it possible to even have this happen running a tractor on the dyno?

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skip33652

06-02-2007 04:58:51

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to BLinWMi, 06-01-2007 11:33:55

I pull with a John Deere R and am very careful not to let it get down to that point sometimes with one hand ready to go to the decompression lever. Franks comment is one I had never thought of but a warm engine on a pull start or even pony start that hit just wrong could start backwards.by the way the very lae model 720's and 730's will run backwards just not so well or as easily.Paul

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jdjack

06-01-2007 19:24:49

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to BLinWMi, 06-01-2007 11:33:55

I pulled our 730 d in a tractor pull and lugged it down and just about killed it, pulled clutch and it started to run backwards. So I have always woundered why this happened, if they were fixed not to do this?

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buickanddeere

06-02-2007 06:27:02

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to jdjack, 06-01-2007 19:24:49

The ability tp run backwards is due to the injection pumps being operated from lobes on the camshaft. Tiss the nature of the beast. Just about any other engine of that design will run backwards as well. An ordinary inline or rotary pump injection doesn't pump very well in reverse.

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buickanddeere

06-01-2007 13:32:05

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to BLinWMi, 06-01-2007 11:33:55

If you pull the clutch at the wrong moment when stalling the 70/early 720, it will run backwards. You shouldn't be lugging the engine low enough to risk a stall. In fact the engine is supposed to be operated at full rated rpm and at 80% of max HP. 20% left for reserve. Those operators who load the engine heavy at less than full rpms. Or worse, yet lugg the engine at full power rpms of 1000rpm or less. They should not be suprised with extra wear and shorter component life. Lugging aggravates crankshaft/flywheel spline loosening & wear. I've had people tell me they are saving wear on the engine by never taking their two cylinder diesel over 800rpms..... .....

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Handsome Jim

06-02-2007 06:52:59

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to buickanddeere, 06-01-2007 13:32:05

I drive a concrete truck and years ago I had one equipped with a 3208 Caterpillar or as we used to call them "32O nothing", and if you'd stall the engine while letting the clutch out and then clutch it really quick and catch it on the last stroke, you'd get them running backwards everytime. First time it happened to me, I didn't know what was going on. Motor running really rough, put tranny in forward gear, went backwards, put her in reverse, went forwards, hydraulic pump for mixer wouldn't work. exhaust smoke coming from air cleaner no power steering. Worst of all, not knowing what was going on, I let it go on too long and all the fuel pumped backwards out of the system and the mechanic had to come out and bleed it down. After that, I knew to shut it off as soon as it started doing that.HJ

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Mike M

06-01-2007 18:20:32

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to buickanddeere, 06-01-2007 13:32:05

And not only on the diesel models, alot of people don't run the gas models wide open either ! These 2cyls. were not ment to be variable speed engines. Later tractors were and the literature said so.

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dds-inc

06-01-2007 18:02:47

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to buickanddeere, 06-01-2007 13:32:05

I agree. Stupidity caused the need for an anti-reverse mechanism.

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F-I-T

06-01-2007 18:33:02

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to dds-inc, 06-01-2007 18:02:47

Stupidity seems like a tough word. If you try to start out with a full load, and push the clutch in a little too fast, you can stall one, and if you react too fast in pulling the clutch handle back to recover, instead of just letting it die, you can have yourself a situation.

I'll pause now and let any of you guys that have never stalled a tractor in that manner to post the next reply. :(

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buckeye al

06-05-2007 15:05:16

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to F-I-T, 06-01-2007 18:33:02

I once helped a friend out of a jam with my 70D. We planted something like 40 acres of corn with it and when all was done, wanted to know what he owed me. I said nothing, I just enjoyed being able to help him. He thanked me but insisted I at least fill the tank. I agreed that would be OK.

I pulled up to his fuel tanks & pulled the lever back to shut it off but just before it died realized I was in front of his GAS tank not the Diesel tank so I thumped the throttle lever back ahead to maybe 1/3.

Hissing noises & odd odd sounds everywhere! The muffler works funny when it's inhaling through it! Knowing something was wrong but not yet what I pulled the stop button & killed it again.

That was near 30 years ago. I'd never heard of them doing this but I recognized it for what it was then and attest to it now..... They WILL run backwards! No guts or serious barks because timing is so far off but they will run backwards! They don't like it much and will reward you with a mess for putting them through it too!

Later.

PS.... He usually planted with a 504 gas and was amazed how little it took to fill the 70.

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buickanddeere

06-01-2007 21:29:30

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to F-I-T, 06-01-2007 18:33:02

I stalled the 720 in front of a crowd while pulling. Then sprayed oil from the airstack as it ran backwards. A humbling experience.

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F-I-T

06-02-2007 07:35:26

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to buickanddeere, 06-01-2007 21:29:30

I figured the skeletons would come out of the closet if I shamed ALL y'all ('All-y'all, meaning not just y'all, everyone in the general population now gathered within earshot). Not to be confused with we'uns or us'ins.

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kj(SE IL)

06-01-2007 19:05:12

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to F-I-T, 06-01-2007 18:33:02

about forty years ago I had that exact thing happen with a 70d. kj

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dds-inc

06-01-2007 18:57:34

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I apologize... in reply to F-I-T, 06-01-2007 18:33:02

I haven't stalled a 70/720 tractor like that, but, granted, It DOES sound bad, and my statement was too harsh.

I apologize, for there are some who unfortunately encountered the situation unexpectedly.

I forgot about the "what ifs" of hitting the occasional rock/root or even a combine overload and instantly shocking the tractor to a panic stop.

THINK before I make comments, AHH!!!

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GeorgiaHayFarmer

06-01-2007 12:36:17

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to BLinWMi, 06-01-2007 11:33:55

I've got a 720. In doing research I found they have a fix for running backwards and starting at a certain serial number and on, the 720's didn't have the running backwords problem anymore. Probably the same for the 70 D's.

Scott

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dandeere

06-01-2007 12:07:09

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to BLinWMi, 06-01-2007 11:33:55

I"ve had mine 25 years, happen"d twice: once on start-up, spit oil bath out precleaner, once backfill"n a basement (try"n to becarefull at slow idle). In normal working speeds she will let you know long before she kills something is going on. GREAT TRACTOR, I"ve had her longer than the wife and the 70"s more dependable, starts better cold,and is less expensive to run... Dan

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Dan50

06-01-2007 19:36:19

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to dandeere, 06-01-2007 12:07:09

"I"ve had her longer than the wife and the 70"s more dependable, starts better cold,and is less expensive to run... Dan "

HA! -And I"m guessing they both talk back to you, but at least you can park one of "em in the shed at the end of the day without a compaint!

-Dan

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dandeere

06-01-2007 19:55:23

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to Dan50, 06-01-2007 19:36:19

You got that right, come to think of it I"m not sure which one barks the loudest! But as long as the wife does"nt read ytmag, I don"t think I"ll sleep in the tractor shed! Dan

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Mike M

06-01-2007 11:57:52

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to BLinWMi, 06-01-2007 11:33:55

If you pull them down and stall them out I think that's where you can have them come back to life backwards. I have never been wittness to this,but have heard of the tales of people ruining engines by this as you now have NO oil pressure.

My 720 book says to not let it pull down below 1000 RPM if you are then stop and shift down a gear. I doubt few ever did this and that lugging lets them tear theirselves up.

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Blksmok

06-01-2007 11:50:48

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Re: Lugging down 70 diesel in reply to BLinWMi, 06-01-2007 11:33:55

BL...it's possible. I had it happen on a 70 diesel when I was dragging saw logs out of the woods. It makes a big mess as it blows the oil out of the air cleaner, out the air intake pipe and everywhere behind the nose cone (assuming you do not have a dealer installed air pre-cleaner stack)Will do engine damage if you don't get it stopped quickly with the decompression lever.

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