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Head Gasket Coating?

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Sam S.

01-03-2007 16:45:01




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I have a 48-A, all rebuilt and ready for the Head to go on. I searched other forums here and found the smooth metal side of the gasket to the block and blue coated side (With a crimp around the piston holes.), to the head.

A couple people mentioned coating with a spray Copper Coating by Permatex. Does this go on both sides of the gasket, even the blue film side? On the Head and Block surfaces as the can says? The can even mentions spraying a coating on the headbolts? Is all this advised?

Hey, why not the drawbar too???

Thanks,
Sam

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F-I-T

01-04-2007 07:05:26




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 Re: Head Gasket Coating? in reply to Sam S., 01-03-2007 16:45:01  
I like the copper coat spray on product from Permatex. I've used it on about a dozen heads and none have ever leaked. I'm generally pretty careful to lap the heads and blocks to a reasonable "flatness", so I probably don't need the stuff, but it's a small price for application and I've not been disappointed. I spray it on both surfaces. I really see it as a no downside decision.

Warped heads and block decks are generally the real reason head gasket problems persist.

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Mike M

01-04-2007 04:57:29




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 Re: Head Gasket Coating? in reply to Sam S., 01-03-2007 16:45:01  
I used to use copper coat,but not totally happy with the results. The last one I did I put on a coating of permetex and hopefully it is doing better as it was a diesel and everything was not the best. I think the block is out some.

I never was a big fan of those gaskets JD sells as they seem to be prone to seepage. Lubbock Gaskets can make you a gasket more like what is in automotive engines today and I think the pullers use them with better success under the higher compressions.

On those studs one end has shorter amount of threads and they are not cut as deep and taper a little like a pipe thread does this is so they can tighten up in the block. This end is usually flat on the end too. Sometimes you will encounter some that will go in too far and on these it may be a real good idea to get some loctite stud and bearing mount and use it on the end that goes into the block and just screw them in and let it harden. How far to go in is another question ? You can usually tell by the good ones or at least as far as a nut that size would be thick so you get enough threads to prevent pull out. Some have even said 1 and 1/2 times the dia. of the stud is how far they need to go. This may be close ? You will have to judge. Make sure you have room in behind the stud too.

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johns48jdb

01-04-2007 04:00:00




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 Re: Head Gasket Coating? in reply to Sam S., 01-03-2007 16:45:01  
while you guys are at this would you tell me which end of the studs go down into the block and how tight to tighten them. i think you put the flat end of the studs into the block with a water sealeant of some type on the threads. seems like i've read before not to over tighten the studs because you can bust through into the tubes around the push rods. how about enlightening us you guys who know. there is some awful good advice in this forum. seems like when a jd mechanic that had worked on jd's for fifty years put my head on he coated the gasket with the old timey real thick wheel bearing grease. thanks for any answers

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Sam in MN.

01-03-2007 19:49:23




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 Re: Head Gasket Coating? in reply to Sam S., 01-03-2007 16:45:01  
Glen & Mike,
Thanks a heap for all the great advice, but I do need to be clear on where to apply the sealant. Yes it is the liguid type, similar to the old IndianHead stuff.

Do I apply the sealant lightly over both sides, on 90% of the surface, keeping clear of the crimps around the cylinders? Or just the two vertical outside edges??

Sam



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Mike Aylward

01-03-2007 20:29:26




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 Re: Head Gasket Coating? in reply to Sam in MN., 01-03-2007 19:49:23  
Sam, just apply the gasket sealer on the very outside. You do not need it anywhere else. Mike



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Glen in TX

01-03-2007 19:04:34




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 Re: Head Gasket Coating? in reply to Sam S., 01-03-2007 16:45:01  
You done good if surfaces are true and that's the key thing there. On early gaskets they recommended soaking them in oil but no one does that with new style gaskets now. The Permatex aviation sealer works fine and I've also just used heavy coats of aerosol aluminum paint installing it while paint is wet. Same principal with the aluminum paint as the copper coat sealer suppose to flexible and give you some cushion to seal but I think that stuff really works better on the composition gaskets than the metal sided ones. Also used Permatex high tak on head gaskets too but the aviation sealer always seems to work best. Clean threads on studs using something like the teflon sealer in block and nuts free of burrs on back side using the lead washers under nuts.

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tstex2

01-05-2007 05:19:39




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 Re: Head Gasket Coating? in reply to Glen in TX, 01-03-2007 19:04:34  
Maybe this is a Texas thing, but when i had my MT head re-done and magna-fluxed, aluminum can-spray was applied on the gasket b4 re-setting the head. The guy that applied the spray, it was his machine shop that did the head work. He"s in his late 50"s and has been working at this machine shop since he was 18 [you do the math].

I agree that both your surfaces MUST be level and that you MUST re-tighten after heating her up to operating temp. It is also very important to insure you follow the proper tightening sequence on the head bolts, as you need to do in other fluid/compression-based chambers.

good luck to all,
tstex

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Glen in TX

01-05-2007 09:20:43




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 Re: Head Gasket Coating? in reply to tstex2, 01-05-2007 05:19:39  
I think we got in the habit of using the aluminum paint because it was easier to use out in the field when changing heads for valve jobs right on the pump stand on irrigation engines. We sprayed it wet and heavy right on the block and head surfaces and soaking the gasket good sticking it together quick wet. Most all mechanics doing irrigation engines around here did it that way too.



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Sam S.

01-03-2007 18:48:35




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 Re: Head Gasket Coating? in reply to Sam S., 01-03-2007 16:45:01  
Pat & Mike,
Both the block and head have been machined and are as clean and true as they are going to get. The FelPro gasket has metal on both sides and a layer between of some type material. It this type of gasket prone to leaking? I can see where those outside vertical strips could leak coolant for sure. I have some Permatex Aviation 3H and that should work right?

I also like the idea of a slow gradual torqing in steps, but I still won't feel good still she has been up and running couple times.

Thanks for all the help,
Sam in MN.

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Mike Aylward

01-03-2007 19:38:18




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 Re: Head Gasket Coating? in reply to Sam S., 01-03-2007 18:48:35  
Sam, I install most head gaskets dry, but the procedure I mentioned below is what Deere recommended not long after these tractors were new. This apparently was a problem in this series of tractors only, possibly due to uneven swelling at the warmup period. The #3 Permatex I use is a liquid formulation. If the 3H is a liquid, brush-on type it should work well. Just be sure NOT to get it on the gasket rail next to the cylinder. Mike

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Mike Aylward

01-03-2007 17:57:51




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 Re: Head Gasket Coating? in reply to Sam S., 01-03-2007 16:45:01  
Sam, in most cases I would fully agree with Pat, but in the case of a late A tractor I will use some #3 Permatex on the outside vertical rails of the gasket. These tractors were known for seeping around this area during the warm-up period. Deere addressed this very issue in a service bulletin (Duane can probably give you the very number of it as I don't have it in front of me right now). Put a light coat on both sides of the gasket on these outside rails, and then torque the head in 10 ft./lb. increments. The slow, steady torque seems to really help. I have used the copper coat and have not been too impressed with it but others have used it and love it. I simply don't think you need that much material on a head gasket. The Permatex film will be very thin but it will definitely help with the coolant seepage. I have done this for many years (including on high compression pulling tractors) and have yet to have one seep after doing this. Hope this helps. Mike

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P Browning

01-03-2007 17:30:55




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 Re: Head Gasket Coating? in reply to Sam S., 01-03-2007 16:45:01  
Sam -- no coating is needed on that gasket. The key to success is (1) that the surfaces are flat and congruent to each other, and (2) that you tighten them from center out in a series of passes and drawing the fasteners to the prescribed torque. And if you do not have the numbers hand, torque values presecribed by Deere are outlined on the JD-H Restoration Site (below).

I would also suggest that those fasteners need to be clean and lubricated. The nuts should almost fly when you start them and then give them a stroke. Added resistance to turning changes the equation for your torque wrench -- there is no way to estimate that added drag. If you mount the head with dirty, rusty, hard-turning nuts, you may as well leave the torque wrench in the toolbox.

Once the engine has been brought to operating temperature (180-190F) for the first time following the overhaul, it is wise to revisit the head bolts with your torque wrench -- and when (or if) you do, be sure to also recheck your tappet settings! (PatB)

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