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How do you tell a 40c from a 420c

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George

12-06-1999 16:13:23




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I just recently became the very happy owner of a JD 40 or 420 crawler. I can't find a serial number tag to determine which model it is. Are there other ways to tell them apart?




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A.M. Krause

04-29-2000 20:10:58




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 Re: How do you tell a 40c from a 420c in reply to George, 12-06-1999 16:13:23  
One good way to tell 40c from 420 is the engine. A 40c does not have a water pump. It is a percolating system. 420c has a water pump and larger pistons. 40c's 4x4 cylinders. 420c has 4.25x4 cylinders. I have a 1954 40c 5 roller with the upper idler. I also have a 1955 40s. From radiator to differential for all practical purposes they are identical.



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Steamer

12-07-1999 15:25:39




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 Re: How do you tell a 40c from a 420c in reply to George, 12-06-1999 16:13:23  
Go by the water pump on the engine. I've read all the responses to your query, and most of them are correct as far as they go. I've added a little history below to help you out as much as I can. The 420 was a performance improvement to the 40 by increasing the bore 1/4 inch (4.00 to 4.25). The early 420's are no different than the 40's other than the engine. However, the increase in bore required the addition of a water pump.

On the early 420's the block is the same as the 40, but the water pump was added by machining the block to accept it. This, of course, is time-consuming during production. The block casting was modified accordingly, but the basic block is the same as the 40. The casting number didn't change at this point, so you can't always go by that. Later, the block was altered in other areas, and the casting number was changed accordingly at that time. The early block has the dipstick on the left side while the oil fill can only be accomplished from the filler tube attached to the top of the valve cover. The later block has the dipstick on the right side and it has a large bayonet cap that covers a large hole that is also an oil fill port. The upper tube on the valve cover is still there if you want to fill it that way. This later block is also used in the 430 series, with the removal of the upper oil fill tube.

As for crawler tracks, rollers and frames; this area was under constant development during the 40 and 420 series productions. The three roller option ended in the middle of the 40 production and the 5-roller was also added somewhere around the same time (I've never been able to determine the length of time the 3 & 5 roller undercarriages were co-produced. I think the 5 superseded the 3, but there were lots of 3-roller parts in house and the model continued on if it were ordered....). There were several different style lower rollers, rock guards, upper idlers, etc. Also, the 61 (light) and 62 (heavy) bulldozers were used on both models, so you can't even go by that.

As far as the paint goes, both the 40 and 420 crawlers were available as industrial units. That really means JD painted the machine yellow instead of green. The early 420's were all green, with the usual yellow stripe appearing several months into production. This is not a good way to tell them apart, as many 40's have a yellow stripe on them. Owners and dealers had a tendency to add that stripe. If you look at my tractor-town picture of my 'M' you can see that I've commited the sin of adding that yellow stripe, using a John Deere font from the 420, but keeping the 'M' designation (Hey! I like that spiffy yellow stripe!!) Many other 420's are all green, because the owner was repainting and didn't want to fuss with that two-tone stuff.

Now, you can go by the presence of the water pump to tell for sure. Of course, someone could have transplanted a 420 engine into a 40 at some point. That will still get you a 420, because that's the real difference from JD's engineering (4 = 40, 20 = 20% more power gets you 420). On other point, though, no 40's were made with the 5-speed gearbox. All 40's have a 4-speed, and many 420's have as well. The 5-speed came out in the second year of the 420's production, so if you have that AND a water pump you either have a 420 or someone went to a lot of work when they fixed up the 40!

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Good Job Steamer!

12-08-1999 05:17:20




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 Re: Re: How do you tell a 40c from a 420c in reply to Steamer, 12-07-1999 15:25:39  
I always enjoy your posts on the crawlers. You have an amazing amount of knowledge about them.
Paul



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Steamer

12-09-1999 06:53:35




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 Re: Re: Re: How do you tell a 40c from a 420c in reply to Good Job Steamer!, 12-08-1999 05:17:20  
Thanks! I try to help out.

While I was growing up, our family ran a JD dealership. My dad was a top machinist as well as a mechanic, so his teaching helps, too. Our service shop wasn't shy about working on crawlers, so most folks brought theirs to us when they needed work. Also, dad had a '57 420C (which I still have) that was traded in about '63. Dad and I spent lots of time buying worn JD crawlers, rebuilding them and then selling them off. In the time period of the 1970's, these 4xx series machines were plentiful and I got to see exactly how each model varient was made. These days, they're fairly rare and it's hard to find one in decent shape. If you're trying to rebuild one, it helps to know what parts are shared with other machines!

I try to share what knowledge I have, since your average JD dealer today has never seen one of these small crawlers, and therefore isn't very helpful.

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Paul

12-07-1999 10:17:36




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 Re: How do you tell a 40c from a 420c in reply to George, 12-06-1999 16:13:23  
My 420C has a tachometer mounted where the 40 manual shows an hour meter. Also, the cigar lighter is positioned above the ammeter on the 420, but to the right of the ignition/light switch on the 40. There's also a fuseholder in the top center of the instrument panel on the 420. The instrument panel center is angled on the 420 for easier viewing of the tach. Todd has you squared away on the engine - maybe this will help with the rest of the machine. Hope you enjoy your little crawler.
Paul

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ToddT

12-07-1999 03:47:59




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 Re: How do you tell a 40c from a 420c in reply to George, 12-06-1999 16:13:23  
I don't know about the rollers because I'm no crawler expert. But my information says the only difference between the 40's and the early 420's was that the engine had a 1/4" larger bore, and due to the extra heat generated, a water pump was added.

If you have no water pump, you have a 40. If you have a water pump, you have a 420.

Also, look at the engine block number stamped on the flange behind the hydraulic pump and below the generator. If this is a 5 or 6 diget number, this indicates you have a 40. If it is a combination of a letter with a number, then you have a 420.

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George

12-07-1999 08:24:43




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 Re: Re: How do you tell a 40c from a 420c in reply to ToddT, 12-07-1999 03:47:59  
This helps a lot. Not sure about the water pump (I'll have to take a closer look - the crawler's out of town) but the number stamped on the engine block is 108643. Looks like I have a 40. Thanks.



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RonMC

12-06-1999 17:52:27




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 Re: How do you tell a 40c from a 420c in reply to George, 12-06-1999 16:13:23  
Hi - Early 40's had 3 rollers, later models had 4 or 5. All the 420's had 5, and were painted originally with the yellow trim on hood and side of grille, but the only thing that is decisive is the top guide roller on the 420C. The industrial models of course were all yellow with no trace of green.



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George

12-06-1999 19:41:20




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 Re: Re: How do you tell a 40c from a 420c in reply to RonMC, 12-06-1999 17:52:27  
My machine has 4 rollers, but no top guide roller. From what I can determine, the 420's came with either 4 or 5 rollers. I've also seen a picture of a 420 with 4 rollers and no top guide roller. The entire machine appears to have been painted yellow at one point, (underneath green). You can see why I'm confused...



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Paul

12-07-1999 07:12:31




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 Re: Re: Re: How do you tell a 40c from a 420c in reply to George, 12-06-1999 19:41:20  
Both 40's and 420's were built with the choice of four or five roller undercarraige. The five roller UC came with an "Upper Support Idler Assembly" as John Deere called it. This is the top guide roller that you mentioned. The four roller did not have this. This is taken from my John Deere 40 Series Service Manual, page 116-15-2. I've also seen pics of a 420C with a three roller UC, but it might have been a hybrid or mislabeled.

I'm also anxious to find out the physical difference in the 40C and 420C. I have a 420C tractor, but a 40 service manual. From the photos in the manual, it appears there's a difference in the dash layout. I'll pack the manual out to the shed for a comparison and let you know later. Where's Steamer - he's our little crawler expert.

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RonMC

12-06-1999 20:33:39




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 Re: Re: Re: How do you tell a 40c from a 420c in reply to George, 12-06-1999 19:41:20  
Does it have lift cylinders on the roller frame inside the tracks, or humped-type dust covers? the 420 had neither according to my photo, and the dust covers were flat. Let me know, may have to get out the magnifying glass !!



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RonMC

12-06-1999 21:57:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you tell a 40c from a 420c in reply to RonMC, 12-06-1999 20:33:39  
Just so you know what I mean about the dust covers/guards, look up the 420 on this site - the first 420 shown is a crawler. It's a fairly comprehensive archive of J-D listing most models, tractors, combines, etc. Let me know if this helps. RonMC



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