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John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum
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Bolt grades

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730 mike

02-27-2006 21:12:24




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In my parts book for all bolts that I looked up which range from fan shroud bolts to exaust manifold bolts it gives the size and then says high strength. I see high strenght as a grade 8 but why would I need grade 8's for holding the fan shroud on I would think grade 5's in most all cases would work or am I wrong.

Mike




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Skyhawk Greg

03-01-2006 09:17:55




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 Re: Bolt grades in reply to 730 mike, 02-27-2006 21:12:24  
A good quality grade 2 is just fine for a radiator shroud. A bolt is nothing but a spring fastener. It applies a clamping force. Some things require a high clamping force, and others do not. Back then, metallurgy was not what it is now. I often see people using a higher grade bolt than is really needed in a false attempt to strengthen the joint. Sometimes this is detrimental.



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txgrn

03-01-2006 17:01:23




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 Re: Bolt grades in reply to Skyhawk Greg, 03-01-2006 09:17:55  
Don't know about detrimental unless you are talking about a tensile strength shear problem...like pulling it apart, not cutting it in half.

Some people pay attention to the tensile strength requirements and some don't. Some farmers have access to Grade 2 and others Grade 8. Maybe you need to ask the designer of the equip who specified a certain grade why? What's funny about fastners is that you can use a grade 2 nut on a grade 8 bolt and it will usually hold. The converse is not true.

So what are we talking about and why?
Mark

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Skyahwk Greg

03-02-2006 06:57:22




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 Re: Bolt grades in reply to txgrn, 03-01-2006 17:01:23  
Hi Mark, By detrimental, I mean that sometimes a Grade 8, L9, SHCS, or higher, is the wrong bolt choice for a particular application, and that it can cause a joint related failure. In a simple case, lets say a Grade 5 bolt is used to hold a casting together. Standard torque for a 1/2-13 is 55 lb-ft (let's say it is oiled). If a SHCS is used in place of the Grade 5, the proper torque for the bolt would be 90 lb-ft (again, oiled). The difference in clamping force between the two bolts would be in the vicinity of 3,500 lbs (about 64% more force than originally designed for). With engineering being what it is, and castings being made to use the least amount of material possible (money savings), it is very conceivable that certain castings could fail. If the bolt is simply not torqued as much, then it could come loose prematurely. I have oversimplified this, as some of the other variables are platings, initial preloads, joint stiffness, and external loads including fatigue.

An example that I have run into many times is when a person replaces a lower grade bolt with a higher grade bolt when using a gasket. Gaskets are designed with two main types of design forces in mind. The first is the minimum clamping force that is needed to make the gasket seat effectively into all of the surface irregularities. This design seating stress is called the yield factor, and is governed by the compressibility of each individual type of gasket material. These values are known by the gasket manufacturer and are crucial in the design of the gasket. The formula to calculate the clamping force required to satisfy the gasket seating requirement takes into account the gasket area, the yield factor of the gasket, and the number of bolts in the joint. The second type of clamping force is the force needed to keep the sealing pressure on the gasket after the pressure is applied inside the gasketed area. As the internal pressure rises, this additional clamping force ensures that the gasket remains leak free. This is called the maintenance factor, and takes into account the end force on the joint, internal pressure, gasket maintenance factor, gasket area, and number of bolts in the joint. For all these joints, the number of bolts is important, the bolt spacing, and the clamping forces are critical.

So, if a gasket fails, why not simply tighten the bolts more, or use a higher grade bolt? This will work, but only to a point. Another known design value for gaskets is the crush strength. This too is unique to each individual type of gasket material. If clamped too much, the crush strength will be exceeded, and the gasket will have permanent deformation, and will fail prematurely. This is bad, and this is real.

There are other gasketed issues as well, such as tightening patterns, creep, blind holes and threaded mating strength, and so on, but the point I am trying to make is that some bolted joints are sensitive to the types of bolts and torques that are used to hold them together. The reason for mentioning some of the things above, is to show that when parts were designed, there usually is a reason for the bolt grade that was selected. Greg

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txgrn

02-28-2006 18:35:35




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 Re: Bolt grades in reply to 730 mike, 02-27-2006 21:12:24  
Agree with your analysis. What you have to do is put yourself in the shoes of the designer and producer. Was it cheaper for them to stock one grade of bolts for all applications of that size bolt? Absolutely; not just in the procurement charges, but stocking and assembly time that wasn't wasted trying to figure out where that grade 5 bolt was....or was it a grade 8?

Mark



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Pappy

02-27-2006 22:14:28




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 Re: Bolt grades in reply to 730 mike, 02-27-2006 21:12:24  
My philosophy is: Grade 8 are preferable for structural parts and grade 5 are plenty good for attachments. I avoid the grade 2. (I refer to grade 2 as tricycle bolts)



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