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Engineers Question #1

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McC

10-24-1999 23:29:19




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This question is for fun only. I don't want anyone to get mad. Most of us have gotten frustrated as we worked on some piece of equipment and wondered why it was engineered this way. If it was only done this way or that way it would have been much simpler to work on. Or " The guy that thought this up knew he would never have to work on it." I realize you engineers that post here probably had nothing to do with this farm equipment, but I would like to hear your viewpoint on this. Thanks.

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zane

10-26-1999 17:56:17




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 Re: Engineers Question #1 in reply to McC, 10-24-1999 23:29:19  
The question of trade-off's is as old as engineering and manufacturing. It will always be with us. My personal beef is with (yes!) engineers who design a product with little or no knowledge or, seemingly, concern about problems that may be encountered in manufacuring it. I have seen numerous items designed for mass production (as in automobiles) and even fabricated in prototype, only to end up at a finishing or plating shop in a form impossible to hold onto for plating, or with some other problem making it almost impossible to finish. Then back to the drawing board or tool shop. Maybe a few hundred thousand dollars here or there (not to mention delays in production and countless alligators snapping!) to correct a problem that could have been anticipated with a little concern or forethought (as in planning). JohnT, I'm sure you, like me, have been there and done that.

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HMan

10-25-1999 15:23:01




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 Re: Engineers Question #1 in reply to McC, 10-24-1999 23:29:19  
Been there done that, too often! Our old buddy John T is right about the people on up the latter calling the shots, as is the others. I'm a tool& die maker/tech in a large manufacturing plant. The best engineer we have started out as a tool& die man. The smart ones know when they're over their head. Then there's the rest! We build our small dies in-shop and have our large dies built out side and then we maintain them. Several times we have designed dies and machines that are high quality and easy to service, only to have an engineering superviser or "bean counter" order a change. These guys (and now girls) don't have to build them or work on them. You can't make them see that the dime they save today will cost them $ tomorrow in down time. Then they get in meetings and tell of how much $ they saved. This philosophy effects our finished product the same way. Great discussion question.

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JDGnut

10-25-1999 15:18:16




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 Re: Engineers Question #1 in reply to McC, 10-24-1999 23:29:19  
Great question. In John Deere in the past few years, there have been some problems with some tractors, that everyone seems to blame the engineers. But really it is the poeple like John T. was talking about, the egged beancounters. Problems in the 8000 series tractors, like the transmission, were a problem that the engineers did not have. This was because the engineers built the test tractors by hand and they used the correct materials. The design on the transmission was great, and the proto type and test tractors did not have these problems. After the engineers were finished then is was time to produce the tractor, and find the "cheapest bidder" the quality of the material was cheapened and then it was found that a few years later that the material was not strong enough. I think that the break down, sometimes is on the assembly line and the bean counters on this end. Well this is about all the "Gnut" has to say about his, Later ya'll.
JDGnut

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HMan

10-25-1999 15:37:05




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 Re: Re: Engineers Question #1 in reply to JDGnut, 10-25-1999 15:18:16  
Tell it like it is brother! If you see my post you'll see I'm in the tool& die game. We build a piece of equipment or a die to run a certain type of metal then put it in production. Then some purchasing agent finds some cheaper metal from the japs ( harder, softer, or running just on the edge of tolerance). Then it's up to us to make it run.



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John T

10-25-1999 12:38:35




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 Re: Engineers Question #1 in reply to McC, 10-24-1999 23:29:19  
Mc, In addition to what Ol Steamer and Gerald there said, which I agree with, I will add another factor. As a design engineer for over twenty years, I found that designs usually resulted in engineering trade offs. Such as one way may be cheaper, but another way may be easier to manufacture or service. And it was the big shots (not us lowly designers) who called the shots. If the head honcho rose out of engineering ranks, we got the better service design, but if he was a non engineer bean counter, we lost those trade off battles and had to design a way we didnt necesarily agree with. I took my designs to the field where the electricians sometimes questioned, but when I explained in engineering reasons they understood and were less grumpy. Likewise, when they explained their concerns, I listened and we got along good. Without a doubt, the best designers are ones who were previously technicians and had hands on experiece while the worst were the egghead types (got straight A's) but had never worked on anything in their life. Good discussion question. John T in Indiana BSEE (Electrical Engineering) Purdue University 1969, JD (Doctor of Jurisprudence) Indiana University 1994.

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Steve, a boiler engineer

10-25-1999 13:03:50




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 Re: Re: Engineers Question #1 in reply to John T, 10-25-1999 12:38:35  
I agree with you guys whole heartily. The best engineers are those with hands-on or field experience. They understand their products better than those who spend their day sitting behind a desk or a computer screen.

In the past, companies place their new hires in the field or the factory so that they would learn the product and functions before they start designing it. Today, this practice is seldom used which is sad.

Also, you know that the best way to ruin a good engineer is to have him get an MBA or law degree. Just kidding, John T.

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John T

10-25-1999 17:03:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Engineers Question #1 in reply to Steve, a boiler engineer, 10-25-1999 13:03:50  
Hey Steve, then are you a Boilermaker like us Purdue grads are called?? I wasnt ruined by my law degree (and by the way agree with that little joke) I was an engineer 20 years before I had to take an early retirement and only went to law school because I dont like laywers and was kicked around by them in the past so now I can hold my own against the so and soes. Good to hear from you. Ol John T



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Steve

10-26-1999 06:38:22




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Engineers Question #1 in reply to John T, 10-25-1999 17:03:20  
Well, actually I'm a dirt engineer by degree from the University of Akron. But after 19 years of working in field for B&W, it has turned me into a boiler engineer. Even after being around steam and fire for those 19 years, there's nothing I like better than the sound of a Johnny Popper.



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Steamer

10-25-1999 10:33:34




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 Re: Engineers Question #1 in reply to McC, 10-24-1999 23:29:19  
As already stated by others, the main engineering drive force is cost. That would be total cost of producing the item, not just the cost of the sub-assemblies that make it up. The most crucial cost element is the time required to manufacture the final item from the parts that make it up. Most of the time, an item is engineered to go together as easily and as quickly as possible when assembled in a specific order on a manufacturing line. Time, in seconds, is worth tens of dollars in this environment.

That is why, for example, you have to remove several working items to finally get to the item that has failed. For example, you can't replace a failing water pump by removing just the pump itself. No, you have to remove other things. In some equipment, you have to remove LOTS of other things. It mainly depends on where in the production line process that water pump was installed. If it's installed as part of the engine sub-assembly (meaning the whole engine arrives in a crate from the engine build line or plant ready to bolt into a tractor), you're proabably in for a whole day of fun removing other things first.

Another thing that causes service frustrations, is the fact that many machines are designed as semi-universal self-propelled powerplants. Once the unit is earmaked for a particular purpose, other engineers design add-on items for the base unit. This means that they had no say in the design of the base machine, and any add-on items will likely get in the way of servicing the base unit. For example, a tractor gets built as a basic utility machine. Then, a different group adds on a front-end loader and a backhoe. Sometimes, just getting on such a machine is a challenge, never mind working on it.

I'm always mindful of the JD 420 (you knew that a tractor had to fit in here somewhere) crawler. It started as a wheel tractor, and service was easy. Then, tracks were added, making things more difficult. Next, add a bulldozer to it, and things get more cramped. Finally, if you add a loader instead of the dozer, forget even getting to the dipstick to check the oil. Now, your task is to change out a faulty clutch! Have fun!! Have 'loads' of fun!

Always keep in mind that the final cost of the unit had to be kept below a certain limit, or no one would buy it. Many manufacturers learned this the hard way. It doesn't matter what era one is in, or even what it is one builds. The first rule is to not price yourself out of your market. Go back to the 420 example, and the economics of altering an existing design become apparent. You can't go off and build a crawler-loader from scratch until you've established yourself into the market as a player. Which is exactly that JD did with the M/40/420/430/440 line up. Made themselves a player in a different market (utility/industrial) than their other machines were in. Worked well, it did.

Some items are designed for servicability right from the start. They can be found with price tags higher (sometimes MUCH higher) than any of the competition. At the time of sale, servicability doesn't come across as being worth the extra cost. Only after the buyer has a failure (maybe years later) will they think that maybe, just maybe, that other one that was easier to service might have been worth the extra cost. Usually, that's when they're looking at the labor charges on the bill.

That doesn't help the manufacturer of the easy-service item any. They're out of business because no one bought their more costly item. As a final example, I give you Motorola Televisions. They had a wonderful idea in the early 1970's. Build their sets to be easily serviced. The electronics were housed in a sliding rack that pulled out of the front of the set. All major circuits were built onto their own seperate boards and plugged into a main board in the rack. To repair it, all you needed to do was slide open the drawer and swap the faulty board for a good one. Fast, easy, and the repairman didn't even have to move the set away from the wall.

Motorola was driven out of the television business three years after this idea hit the market. Why? First, the set cost 25% more than the next guy's set did. Second, the competition ran ads suggesting that Motorola needed this gimmick because their set designs were suspect to begin with. Ouch! You make something easy to service and the competition zaps you for it!

Anyway, this engineer that started out as a service tech will get off his soapbox now. Hope I opened a few eyeballs!

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Very Good Answer..

10-26-1999 23:28:40




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 Re: Re: Engineers Question #1 in reply to Steamer, 10-25-1999 10:33:34  
Having been there and seen how its done, I agree completely..... well said.



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Gerald J.

10-25-1999 08:08:14




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 Re: Engineers Question #1 in reply to McC, 10-24-1999 23:29:19  
As and electronic design engineer, I learned a lot servicing electronic equipment. I advocate that design engineers should spend a period of time as service types fixing the current designs of the equipment they are expected to design. It will WARP their minds and they will produce products that can be repaired without loss of skin. It may take a while though in machinery since a new product is more one of variations on an existing product than something completely new.

It wouldn't hurt if they USED the products too.

Gerald J.

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Bean counters

10-25-1999 03:06:57




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 Re: Engineers Question #1 in reply to McC, 10-24-1999 23:29:19  
The primary reason farm machinery is the way it is is those "bean counters" they ruin it. It, machinery is built to be "cheap" so the implement manufacture makes more money and sell more equipment!



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A non-bean counter

10-25-1999 06:19:12




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 Re: Re: Engineers Question #1 in reply to Bean counters, 10-25-1999 03:06:57  
It's not really the bean counters who make tractors "cheap", it's competition that makes tractor "cheap". Let's say that manufacturer 'A' has been building a certain tractor for 5 years and has 75% of the market. Manufacturer 'B' makes a similar tractor and has 15% of the market. If 'B' wants to increase his market share, he has to either make a better machine for same price or a similar machine for a cheaper price. Either way, he has to make his tractors for less than his competitor does to gain in the market. He does this by changing his engineering and manufacturing process. If he can find cheaper way to manufacture his tractor components, he will. If not, he may use a cheaper design to cut costs or ship the manufacturing overseas where the labor costs are lower.

Once 'B' has gained some market share, 'A' will have to do the same to gain back the lost market. This process continues and drives the market.

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