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51 B One minute running fine.... the next minute..

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Brad Bachelor

02-25-2004 04:34:08




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Hello All,
I've got a 1951 B with a perplexing problem. I'll be going along plowing or doing something under load and all of a sudden it will sputter and backfire and stall out. I can prevent it from stalling by pulling back on the throttle. I let it set for about 10 sec, then continue on my merry way. The problem is intermittent and seems to happen more once the engne is warm. I did the carb flow test and noticed no interupption in fuel flow. It happens at random times, but seems to happen more when I'm going up hill. I even top off the tank to see if its a fuel pickup problem, but no solution yet.
Any one have this problems or any suggestions?
Thanks,
Brad

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Dave Bacon

02-25-2004 17:13:33




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 Re: 51 B One minute running fine.... the next minu in reply to Brad Bachelor, 02-25-2004 04:34:08  
Brad The vent problem seems No. 1---If I was you I would try removing the drain cock from the bottom of the carburator bowel, inserting a male adapter X barb fitting. Next install a chunck of clear hose--sent the hose upward and tie it in the upward position. You may want to insert a small barbed fuel filter to keep out the dirt if it usualy takes a while for the tractor to play its tricks. Watch the fuel in the test sight (hose) if it goes above the bottom 1/2 of carb it is flooding---if it drops it is starving. I hope you can understand this. I wish The good lord would have made me a little smarter instead of so dang good looking--please post back when you win. Dave NE Iowa

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Dave Bacon

02-25-2004 21:43:33




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 Re: Re: 51 B One minute running fine.... the next in reply to Dave Bacon, 02-25-2004 17:13:33  
C-man, I mean no disrespect, but golly - G ---Im reasonably sure I did this quite a few years ago. But then on the other hand, maybe it did not work and I just don't remember. I will have to try it this summer for the heck of it. Now you got me wondering. Could it be the level of fuel that I'm wrong on? I am kind of like a ill tuned JD with this site. Some times I hit every eve then sometimes it is a week or so before I fire up again. Thanks for the advise, You and Mr. Frank are most helpful, and very much on top of the green. I also think that is why this is such a active site. It seems this site gets lots of knowledge while some of the other colors discus the weather and other unrelated subjects. Keep up the good work and again a big Thank You! Dave NE Iowa

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Clooney

02-26-2004 03:45:50




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 Re: Re: Re: 51 B One minute running fine.... the n in reply to Dave Bacon, 02-25-2004 21:43:33  
Dave, you probably tried it at a low idle.. If the idle is low enough the economizer system won't pull a vacuum on the float bowl & you will get fuel to raise up in that hose.. Either that or you had the float bowl loose so it couldn't build a negative pressure [vacuum] inside the float bowl..

At high throttle plate angles [wide open] the economizer system does drop off & doesn’t pull the float bowl to negative pressure but by then the air intake restriction of the intake pipe & air cleaner is enough to lower the carb’s lower float bowl area to below atmospheric pressure & again the fuel level in that clear hose will drop below fuel level..

If a 3/8” hole were drilled in the top of the float bowl above fuel level that clear hose would then read the fuel level correctly at all throttle settings. Also if the float bowl gasket was missing or leaking enough it would allow the level in that clear hose to show the correct float bowl level..

Give it a try when you get a chance & let us know what you show..

Your clear hose suggestion is still one of the better ways to measure the fuel level in the carb float bowl it just isn’t very accurate on a running engine..

JDClooney@aol.com

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Dave

02-26-2004 20:34:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 51 B One minute running fine.... t in reply to Clooney , 02-26-2004 03:45:50  
Cloney----You are no doubt right on target, and my memory is unpredictable, but anyway a big thanks for your imput. I certianly respect your opinion very highly. Maybe You, John, Duwayne and a few others need to put your knowledge to print or perhaps a cheaper option would be a video. Thanks to all you good folks her on this board, I learn every time I open this form up.



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Clooney

02-25-2004 18:06:47




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 Re: Re: 51 B One minute running fine.... the next in reply to Dave Bacon, 02-25-2004 17:13:33  
Dave, that clear hose trick you speak of works good on a non running tractor but due the back suction economizer system won't work on a running tractor that's much above idle.. The suction created in the float bowl area will suck the fuel level way down in that hose even on a good functioning system with the correct fuel height in the float bowl..



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RUSS

02-25-2004 13:04:49




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 Re: 51 B One minute running fine.... the next minu in reply to Brad Bachelor, 02-25-2004 04:34:08  
1950 JD B at 98% running; I think somewhere in all these strings is the answer. If water in fuel is possible try a 1/2 bottle of isopropyl into the fuel tank. Can't wait to hear what the gremlin was. Good luck.



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Dave

02-25-2004 10:37:24




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 Re: 51 B One minute running fine.... the next minu in reply to Brad Bachelor, 02-25-2004 04:34:08  
Had a similar problem once. Previous owner had installed a rubber fuel line and it would collapse at full throttle and not allow enough fuel to flow.



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Clooney

02-25-2004 10:07:12




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 Re: 51 B One minute running fine.... the next minu in reply to Brad Bachelor, 02-25-2004 04:34:08  
Brad, a few things come to mind on your problem...

~The first is: that you might have a late model NON vented gas cap on your tractor, that B of yours needs a vented gas cap.. [does the problem occur faster & more often with a full fuel tank? If so suspect a tank venting problem]

~The second is: that you have a leaf other partially floating piece of junk in the fuel tank that occasionally gets sucked into the fuel pick up fitting [run that fuel flow test again, only this time run the fuel into a pail & keep pouring it back into the tank,, run the fuel flow test for about 1/2 to 1 hour as that will simulate your plowing sequence]..

~Third thing is: make darn sure your metal fuel line from the tank to the carb isn't touching or too close to the exhaust manifold.. [if that fuel line is too close to the exhaust manifold you could be getting vapor lock]..

~Forth thing is: if your tractor has been retrofitted with an oil pressure controlled fuel shut-off make sure it has a good smooth operation & has good oil pressure to it..

~OK here’s what you are fighting… Seeing as your problem is intermittent you won’t find it easily.. If it’s a fuel flow problem [probably is] you will have to duplicate the problem scenario to find it with a test.. That means to do a fuel flow test you will need to do it many times , probably with the front end facing up hill, & do it for long periods..

Any questions just post back or E-Mail & we’ll try to help you find your problem..

JDClooney@aol.com

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Jed

02-25-2004 09:39:32




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 Re: 51 B One minute running fine.... the next minu in reply to Brad Bachelor, 02-25-2004 04:34:08  
For what it is worth I had the same problem and it was water in the gasoline. It seems to happen more now with the ethanol in gasoline. If you get more than 10% ethanol in gasoline , it will phase seperate and even behave like water. When you stop the tractors motion the water settles in a low spot away from the bowl outlet and you are okay for a while. Choking it ought to help because that will bring in a large volume of gasoline and that should enrich it allowing combustion to occur.

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Brad Bachelor

02-25-2004 08:19:29




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 Re: 51 B One minute running fine.... the next minu in reply to Brad Bachelor, 02-25-2004 04:34:08  
Thank you gentlemen all. I have printed out your suggestions and will try them out. I have tried some, but will keep going. Thanks for the story too John, I've been battling this for a while so I kinda hope it does go away.
My Father-in-law who farmed with the tractor since it was a year old (its a '50 not a '51) told me that the reason it was stopping was that I plowed on Sunday (hey its a hobby to me....that doesn't make it "work" does it??).
I discounted that theory right away, but now I'm starting to take it a little more seriously..... ..
Thanks again,
Brad

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John51

02-25-2004 07:55:09




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 Re: 51 B One minute running fine.... the next minu in reply to Brad Bachelor, 02-25-2004 04:34:08  
This won't help but it may be comforting. I had exactly the same problem with my 730 (gas). I tried everything!! It drove me crazy because it ran so good almost all of the time, then quit. Did just the same tings as your B. Just plain crazy. I checked for fuel flow and obstructions. I replaced everything in the ignition. I rebuilt the carb. The problem continued, but over time it happened less frequently and finally disappeared over a two year period. I still don't know what caused it or why it quit doing that. Just a mystery.

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John T

02-25-2004 07:07:17




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 Re: 51 B One minute running fine.... the next minu in reply to Brad Bachelor, 02-25-2004 04:34:08  
Good Morning Brad, I tend to agree with Rav there, I also suspect a fuel flow problem, maybe in the tanks outlet area,,,,, or something metal (broken or rusted baffle material???),,,,, ,, or dirt in the tank getting in the outlet area,,,,, ,,,, or too low float level,,,,, ,, or a restriction in the needle n seat,,,,, , or a cap not venting,,,,, or carb baffle plugged maybe ????? heres a few things I would look at:

First, make sure the gas cap is venting so shes not air locking. I had a tractor starve for fuel once and the cap was sealed tight was the reason. You might also check the carbs baffle isnt clogged up so air can enter.

1) With the gas on at the sediment bowl or any shut offs, open the carbs lower drain cock/plug and let it flow a minute or 2 to be safe and see if that 1/16 inch stream flows continuous????

2) If not, remove the gas line from the carb and see if a good strong steady stream the size of the lines inside diameter flows continuous.

3) If not, remove the glass sediment bowl and see how well gas enters the top to fill the bowl area. If shes not strong n steady there, dirt or rust etc may be inside the tank or inlet pipe area and she needs cleaned n purged.

4) If she flows well out the line to the carb but not out the bottom per test 1 above long enough, I would first remove the carb inlet strainers side drain and see if you can clean out any rust or crud..... ..... . If that dont help, I would remove the side inlet strainers top nut n cap(may need new gasket) and clean that all out..... .... If that dont help, I would remove the carbs lower bowl and clean and check the needle n seat area and the float level. Dont loose the lil spring in the bottom.

OTHER THINGS TO LOOK AT:

Have you adjusted the top load needle settings lately?????

Have you removed te air cleaners lower bowl to make sure its clean and NOT have any water???

DOES CHOKING SOME get her back up n running????? ????? If so, there may be some other internal carb restrictions, let us know if you need any carb cleanign tips!!!!! !!!

There could be some ignition problem, but it sounds more like fuel starvation for now, so I wont talk spark unless we need it later. I think maybe the float could be low, or a needle n seat restriction, or a tank outlet area or sediemnt bowl restriction, or a clogged cap or baffle, or something like dirt or metal (baffle broken) in the tank restrictign fuel flow for now.

Post back your findings or any questions or e mail me at jmn50@msn.com.

Let us know, Good Luck n God Bless ya Brad.

John T

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Ravgardner

02-25-2004 05:35:17




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 Re: 51 B One minute running fine.... the next minu in reply to Brad Bachelor, 02-25-2004 04:34:08  
Your description suggests a problem with the float and needle valve. It may occasionally stick and not allow the bowl to fill with fuel. When you back down the throtle, the fuel level maintains the engine at slow idle. The vibration may then free up the float and give you full flow to the carb. The other problem that comes to mind is debris in the tank moving from blocking the outlet to not blocking it. Check inside the tank for bad stuff, if not found, I'd check the float and needle valve in the carb.

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