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John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum
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John deer with detorit engines

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Andrew

02-18-2004 17:53:30




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looking for volunteers with john deer tractors models (420 8010) and all others with detorit repowers for my new G.M 2 stroke website reply soon..... ...




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buckeye al

02-20-2004 16:06:53




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 Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to Andrew, 02-18-2004 17:53:30  
May be that my two pennies on the matter aren't worth even that much. I've never farmed with these engines but I have grabbed hold of the tail of many GM 2 cycle engine powered tractors on my dyno at our local show. One in particular was a Massey Ferguson 85 (I think) with a 3-71. I believe it was built for Ferguson by Oliver. Anyway, it had so much carbon in it from light parade type use, it blew soot balls like a steam tractor for 10 minutes but it still jumped right into what the dyno threw at it. After about 10 minutes 'clearing his throat' the peak HP rose 15 points.

These engines tend jump into the load as well as most and better than many. When I push them with the dyno, they push right back with a vengance. They tend to jump on the load quickly yet I've never had one break into oscillation. When I push with the dyno they push right back maintaing speed right up to their rated HP. Only then do they begin to yield RPM's to the dyno. That's exactly what they're supposed to do!

Granted they don't sound like they ever lug. For example a 4-71 at 1800 rpm gives you 7200 of his very abrupt exhaust reports every minute. 4 cylinder 4 stroker at 1800 only gives you 3600 reports each minute. When the 4-71 is dragged down to what sounds like 1800 RPM he falls flat on his face. Remember though he's actually only going 900! That's almost idle speed! How much does a 3010, 4010, 4020, an 806, a 4630, an 1855 or even a Minnie G706 or G1000 have left if you pull 'em down to 900? Sure they'll do it & they'll come back for more but it's not the way they were meant to run.

When we want the show grounds to know something is happening over at the dyno, nothing will reach out & grab them by the ear quite like a Super 99 bellerin for all it's worth @ his peak output through a straight pipe! No I couldn't stand to farm that way but then, they didn't sell them that way either. I look at all this like the old which is better, Red or Green argument. The answer is and always has been yes!

It depends on what you're up to as to which works best for you because each tractor and operator is different. These engines were maybe a bit too different for some. Maybe too different for most but it didn't necessarily make them bad. Sure some owners had nothing but trouble with them but as a friend of mine says, some guys can break the horn off an anvil!

Like I said, just my opinion.

Later.

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buickanddeere

02-20-2004 10:31:43




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 Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to Andrew, 02-18-2004 17:53:30  
There seems to be this misconception from operators of four strokes about Detroit Diesels. And a total lack of understanding the difference between torque and power. Some have their minds made up and no amount of mathematics and dyno testing will make no change to their opinions. The four stroke starts to run out of breath and loose volumetric efficiency when revved past it's rpm where peak torque is found at max volumetric efficiency. At peak HP rpms the cylinders are not as full of air per revolution but more air is moved through the engine per minute. Thus HP does increase for a while when revved past peak torque/max cylinder filling rpm. The Detroit has a flat torque curve and HP just keeps increasing with rpm. Increase the torque load on the crank past max output output and yes it will begin to slowdown. It's already at max torque. It doesn't gain torque output when lugged as volumetric efficiency doesn't increase at about 1/2 to 2/3's of it's max HP rpm like the fourstroke. A four stroke first looses torque and then looses HP as rpms keep increasing peak HP rpm. The illusion of increased four stroke torque bulge or torque rise as engine are lugged is even fudged into the fuel delivery curves of new electronic engines.

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John

02-19-2004 13:12:21




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 Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to Andrew, 02-18-2004 17:53:30  
How can u stand to hear one of those noisey things bellar! I am ashamed of Deere for ever considering a Chevy, I mean a GM, engine in a good tractor, much less actually putting one in there. I guess we are all entitled to an opinion, even if it is wrong huh?



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John

02-20-2004 07:50:43




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 Re: Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to John, 02-19-2004 13:12:21  
Hummmm, I figured there must have been a few people out there that actually liked em, otherwise they would have never sold. As fars as power = RPM, well that depends. Those GM 2 strokes don't have much lugging ability. Stroke = lugging ability and those motors just don't have it. They work good as long as they are cranked up tight but as soon as they start lugging down they fall out of their power band real soon.

Actually I tried to buy a 440IC with a GM once upon a time but the owner was off his rocker. About the only good thing on the machine was the serial number plate. The rest had a realy hard life, had been butchered on and was completely wore out. He only wanted $7500 for it. What a bargin! I had to pass it up. Tried to talk another fellow out of a 435 but never could get up with the "real" owner so never was able to drag it home either. I would like to have one for the novelty of it. Just would sure hate to have to make a living listening to that little fellow bellow.

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andrew

02-20-2004 08:48:21




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 Re: Re: Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to John, 02-20-2004 07:50:43  
another thing to what happens when you have any engien thats running @ 2000 RPM and you open them up to liek 2300-3000 you gain H.P thats why detroit rev high... military 4-53TAI's run 3800 RPM 310H.P 8V92TAI in tanks 3100 RPM 800 H.P 6V53TAI's 4400 RPM 450 H.P 12V71TTAI 3000 RPM 900 h.p but the 53's do not lug that 4.5in stroke just cant handle any thing belowe 1800 if you lug them down that far you shift but the best luggin two storke is the 71,92,110,149 thoese were the best 53's are for continued high RPM.....

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andrew

02-20-2004 08:40:20




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 Re: Re: Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to John, 02-20-2004 07:50:43  
yes the 53's dont lug to well "short stroke" the series 71 do i saw a guy with a super 99 used to rev it up tp 1900 RPM then let he lug down to oh about 950-1200... then hes looken at the engine like that thats all he has.. then looked over at that throttle riped it back and she jumped to 2800 RPM and he did 3 pull threws out of 3, that day the first one he did he went right threw and came around behind the stands back to the beginning he did that ever time... no a engine thats running 1200 RPM i dont think any other engine will gain rpm fast like a two stroke but there snappy..

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big guy

02-20-2004 04:05:02




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 Re: Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to John, 02-19-2004 13:12:21  
opinions are like a$$holes, everbody has one..... ...



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Andrew

02-19-2004 15:28:50




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 Re: Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to John, 02-19-2004 13:12:21  
id rather have a detorit then a cummins and a detroit ofver a jd two lunger least u have a smooth runnign engine with "power" and keeps you awake in long hard hours of work wear as them jds just bang clunk and fart. remember this RPM= POWER detroits have rpm tones of them and u can put th efuel to them and still get 56 miles to a gallon and get 200h.p out of a 212 Cubic inch engine



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Larry

02-19-2004 14:23:39




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 Re: Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to John, 02-19-2004 13:12:21  
John, Like you say, everyone is entitled to an opinion. I have a 435 and just love it! Yes, it screams and bellows but it is one of the gutsiest tractors for it's size. I take it to spring and fall plow days and everyone else wants to take a round or two with it. Maybe that's all they can stand, but I think it is great. You do have to be sure and plug in the heater if you want to start it much below 40 degrees though.

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Andrew

02-19-2004 15:42:06




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 Re: Re: Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to Larry, 02-19-2004 14:23:39  
you have a picture of that 435??? if you do email it to me @ [email protected] thank you...



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JC

02-19-2004 13:55:47




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 Re: Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to John, 02-19-2004 13:12:21  
RE: Andrew's comments! I wouldn't be "ashamed" to hear or to own a DD {GM} powered JD tractor.
A friend of mine has a 435 {I think that's the model} and an 8020 which he is just finishing. DD built, and builds great engines and other divisions of GM like Allison build great automatics for heavy class 8 trucks. Deere didn't have a suitable engine for the market and GM did. I'm not a fan of GM, but they have built some great niche products over the years.

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Liz Hart

02-19-2004 12:05:40




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 Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to Andrew, 02-18-2004 17:53:30  
My spouse has a John Deere 435D (and a 430 gas). 435D is a Detroit diesel. What do you need to know about them?



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Andrew

02-19-2004 15:22:39




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 Re: Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to Liz Hart, 02-19-2004 12:05:40  
that 435 D with the 2-53 well you have a picture if you want send it to me im settign up a G.M(detroit diesel) two stroke web site im looking for some pictures for my site thanx let me know



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buickanddeere

02-19-2004 06:29:52




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 Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to Andrew, 02-18-2004 17:53:30  
Factory installed Detroit Diesels in the 435, 440, 8010 which 99 or 100 were rebuilt into 8020's. And an alpha cube maker. No such thing as a diesel 420 or diesel 430.



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Andrew

02-19-2004 10:25:42




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 Re: Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to buickanddeere , 02-19-2004 06:29:52  
i can never remember the jd 435 with the 2-53 and the 8020 with the 6-71 all i no is that they had the detroit engine..... ..



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Tom in Mo.

02-18-2004 19:18:59




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 Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to Andrew, 02-18-2004 17:53:30  
I am interested in ALL of the GM 2 stroke diesels mounted on any make of tractor. There is nothing like hearing and seeing that power. Keep us posted on how the web/information site comes together.



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Andrew

02-19-2004 10:30:38




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 Re: Re: John deer with detorit engines in reply to Tom in Mo., 02-18-2004 19:18:59  
yes the detoits are neat the best sounding engine is a 6V53 with a good load on luggen down to 2000 RPM, BEST sound ever.. also the 6V71 sounds good with a cheep muffler... Ill email you when i get this site up im waiting on information on the 6-110 and 149 series then its done:)...



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