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John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum
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Pony engine conversion to Elec start

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Markus

02-04-2005 11:13:44




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My pony on my 720D is in rough shape...has a broken rod. I am really considering converting it over to a 12 volt aftermarket electric start system. THere are at least 3 places that sell these kits...WIlson Farm, CLyde Wilson, etc...all here in Ohio.

Another reaosn I want to convert is that I just like the simplicity of pushing a button to start the tractor rather than waiting for pony to warm up and the pony is also messy, drips etc. I estimate my pony needs $800 in repairs to overhaul. I will keep it around for the future in case I want to put it back on.

ANybody have experience with the aftermarket kits? what should I look for...they seem to be around $800.

ANy thoughts?

Thanks!

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Dee

02-04-2005 20:51:37




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 Re: Pony engine conversion to Elec start in reply to Markus, 02-04-2005 11:13:44  
I Put one of Clyde Wilson's conversion kits on my 820, It was a very easy project, and seemed to start the diesel easily. Yes you did indeed have to pull the compression release, and spin the eng over and let it go, it worked fine, however I am in Calif.
I sold that tractor right after I converted it, but it did work fine for me.
Dee



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billyiron

02-04-2005 17:15:37




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 Re: Pony engine conversion to Elec start in reply to Markus, 02-04-2005 11:13:44  
I changed my 70 over and really like it,,Ive talked to several guys who use a new JD starter same as on the 8000 series tractor and it really spins them,,I also stuck another battery in the pony engine compartment, works good,,I didnt buy a kit, had old starter,and I made a mount for it,,,good luck --billy



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JerryBird

02-04-2005 15:52:23




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 Re: Pony engine conversion to Elec start in reply to Markus, 02-04-2005 11:13:44  
You can try Triple G Service .I got a 12v kit from there for my 70D mid last year works great ,nice quality, and it was less than $800.00.Their toll free number is 1-888-720-0830.



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buickanddeere

02-05-2005 05:06:40




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 Re: Pony engine conversion to Elec start in reply to JerryBird, 02-04-2005 15:52:23  
Electric start diesels are unseen around here unless a collector has imported one from the US south. Rewinding the factory 24V starter for 12V reduces the starter output. For those new conversion kits did they increase the starter motors dia, length or both? To get enough 12V power there has to be larger dia copper windings and more off them. I looked at my 840's but the electric's have been pilfered off the one. And the other has had a tinker's 12V conversion. I'll try to remember again tonight to measure the length, dia and find a data plate. Maybe some measuring to see just long and large dia starter motor frame can be crammed in there. The way those wee Nipenso starters work is rpms. They use permanent magnets of strength that wasn't available years ago. This allows the current flowing into the motor to do the cranking instead of also having to make the other magnetic pole as well. Less copper losses too. The armature is beefy and small in dia. This allows it to spin at rpms that would disintegrate a conventional starter. The extra stage of reduction gear drive brings the rpms down and the torque up to crank the diesel. Starting on one 12V 1000 CCA battery will be hard pressed under the most ideal wiring design and installation. To make 10HP at the starter.

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buickanddeere

02-04-2005 13:30:38




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 Re: Pony engine conversion to Elec start in reply to Markus, 02-04-2005 11:13:44  
Warm, cool or cold weather use? What type of battery(s) and battery location(s) do you have in mind? Are you familiar with electricity or have access to someone that can truly trouble shoot a circuit instead of educated guesses. Green Magazine had an article that made me cringe a little a few years back. The owner kept all the cranking engine setup but swapped out the JD V4 for Tecumseh or something. To his credit the swap was so clean it looked factory.

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Markus

02-04-2005 13:59:03




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 Re: Pony engine conversion to Elec start in reply to buickanddeere, 02-04-2005 13:30:38  
It will be used in Ohio..it will be cold at times, ..of course I would want it to start regardless of temperature...so if these new 12v units dont do that, then I'm fixing the pony...
12V Battery under seat...largest possible.

Does this help?



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buickanddeere

02-04-2005 15:09:57




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 Re: Pony engine conversion to Elec start in reply to Markus, 02-04-2005 13:59:03  
The cranking engine diesels have a smaller battery box than the 24V start tractors. A cranking engine in good condition will roll a 70/720/730 in just about any cold weather. A tired cranking engine or one on an 80,820,830 or 840 in cold weather is maxed out. That's 12 or 14 HP depending who you ask. A 12V starter motor that HP would have to use a larger motor frame than the factory 24V motor's frame. Now the late Mike Hanley did retrofit his 730 to 12V electric and made it work. It was however a top notch conversion with no details ignored. He also must have been rolling her over with the decompression then hitting her with fuel and compression with perfect timing before the engine slowed down. Supposed to use that compression release for starting but I rarely see people use it except when shutting down. That's a whole other issue maybe best left alone. If you do the conversion get the starter motor with the + and (-) both isolated instead of the (-) fastening inside the starter to the frame. You won't have to change the starter should 24V be needed instead of 12V. If there isn't an electric coolant heater in that tractor the additon of one would be a huge assist. Parked inside or where the wind can hit the engine?

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hardscrabble

02-04-2005 20:17:09




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 Re: Pony engine conversion to Elec start in reply to buickanddeere, 02-04-2005 15:09:57  
buickanddeere; You mention using the decompression when shutting down an engine. I"ve also seen other guys do the same thing. My dad had an 80, and I had a 720 Diesel, and we never did such a thing. So what"s the reason for it? Just wondering.



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John T ?

02-05-2005 05:00:17




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 Re: Pony engine conversion to Elec start in reply to hardscrabble, 02-04-2005 20:17:09  
Its my opinion that if you used the compression release when shutting down, it lessens that hard shock and strain (sudden reversal of rotation) on the flywheel to its mating crankshaft splines when it bucks n SUDDENLY kicks back n reverses such is it does when bouncing back n forth up aganst compresion at shut down. I see NO REASON NOTTTTT TTT TO USE IT AT SHUTRDOWN for this reason alone (prevent flywheel from working loose), regardless if any other possible advantages as mentioned above concerning where the flywheel eventually stops at.

Agree or disagree anyone????? ????/

John T

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55 50

02-05-2005 09:40:32




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 Re: Pony engine conversion to Elec start in reply to John T ?, 02-05-2005 05:00:17  
I ran an R a lot as a young fellow and never used compression release when shutting off the engine. Are you sure it "kicks back" and "reverses" as it is shutting down? Seems strange to me that it would do that. Wouldn't the flywheel have enough energy to keep it going in the forward direction until that energy dissipated?



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John T

02-06-2005 06:16:01




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 Re: Pony engine conversion to Elec start in reply to 55 50, 02-05-2005 09:40:32  
What I mean by reverse and kickback is ONLY that last final backwards kick n reverse they get before they finally stop caused by them coming up on compression, not having enough energy to roll over, then that final bounce back. I still think its best NOT to have them under compression to avoid that.

John T



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Bob

02-05-2005 12:55:15




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 Re: Pony engine conversion to Elec start in reply to 55 50, 02-05-2005 09:40:32  
I grew up around an "R", a 730, and an 830. They were never babied, and the compression was NEVER released at shut-down. They all went about a zillion hours with no problems. They were sold to pay nursing home bills, and I wish I had them back!

I don't think there's ANY comparison in stress between the bouncing against compression at shutdown, and the POUNDING those shafts and splines take while LUGGING loaded up a hill, at full fuel!

I grew up pulling 28 feet of drill behind the 830, on some land with coulee hills. You don't know the definition of "torque rise" until you've driven a fully-loaded 830!

So, while there's no question that releasing the compression at shutdown is a good idea, I'm sure most of the old girls never had that luxury treatment in their working lives, and still survived!

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buickanddeere

02-05-2005 04:49:42




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 Re: Pony engine conversion to Elec start in reply to hardscrabble, 02-04-2005 20:17:09  
It"s a controversial topic. I hestate to get into it as there is no way to avoid getting somebody offended. Best I can say is the flywheel will not stop in the same spot all the time. This will spread starter engagment wear around the ring gear. There are a pile of ring gears out there that look almost new except for a few teeth.



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WeirdDeere

02-05-2005 02:24:02




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 Re: Pony engine conversion to Elec start in reply to hardscrabble, 02-04-2005 20:17:09  
I do it myself because it seems easier on the engine and accesories (pumps, etc) that are attached to it. When decompressed, it slowly rolls to a stop instead of jerking back and forth at the end.

It also keeps the flywheel from stopping in the same spot (actually two spots when either cylinder is on compression). After years of stopping/restarting in the same spot, there can be enough wear that the starter/pony won't engage right.

I kill the fuel, then decompress for the last few turns. I don't think you should kill with decompression alone, this would leave unburned fuel in the cylinders.

Brandon
My Industrial John Deere website
John Deere Diesels
The LaGrange Engine Club

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Bob

02-05-2005 00:41:59




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 Re: Pony engine conversion to Elec start in reply to hardscrabble, 02-04-2005 20:17:09  
It's just an old wive's tale that it's easier on the engine to let it coast to a stop with the compression released than to simply cut off the fuel. "Rural myth, so to speak."



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720Deere

02-05-2005 16:09:06




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 Re: Pony engine conversion to Elec start in reply to Bob, 02-05-2005 00:41:59  
I always use the decomp lever when shutting down the two cylinder diesels. Whether or not it is beneficial to the engine/flywheel, I don"t really care to argue, but you can"t argue the benefit of spreading the wear on that flywheel ring gear. As Brandon said they usually land one of two places when under full compression and those two areas are usually pretty well worn on the ring gear. When the decomp is used during shutdown the flywheel coasts to a stop at a different place every time. I can argue that one because I have witnessed it many times with my flywheel cover off.

I hope you"re not one of those guys that also doesn"t feel it is necessary to use the decomp for warm starting either. That is a whole new discussion in itself.

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