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John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum
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Peck in B Engine!!!

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jsmiller

01-03-2005 20:33:47




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Just finished overhaul!! Crank and Bearings,Bored block and new pistons, pins fitted to new bushings, Fanshaft and governor bearings, vent pump rebuilt, I know that it needs matched governor/fanshaft Gears But I have a ton in it now!! The matched Gears whine and are a little loose. The peck is when the engine loads or hits when you listen it sounds between the head and governor?? thought it may have been Wristpins not fitted correctly. We tore it back down and they are tight. Flywheel is tight, Belt pulley parts are good and tight. I am about to pull my hair out!!! Any One have an IDEA???
Thanks in Advance!!! JM

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ebbsspeed

01-04-2005 06:58:42




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 Re: Peck in B Engine!!! in reply to jsmiller, 01-03-2005 20:33:47  
Exhaust leak?



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JDClooney

01-04-2005 03:59:31




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 Re: Peck in B Engine!!! in reply to jsmiller, 01-03-2005 20:33:47  
jsmiller, it would help if we knew if the peck (noise) you were hearing was once per rev or every other revolution? That alone can eliminate some things & highlight others..

-Lets start with the valve train.. I presume you used a feeler gauge to set the valve lash? On an older valve train that can leave excess clearance due to step wear on the rocker arms & loose rocker arms on the rocker shaft.. The first thing to do is buy, find, or make some thin shim washers that will fit the rocker shaft.. Then shim most of the rocker arm side play out of the rocker arms.. You don�t want them tight but just get them down to have very little side play.. Try to keep them centered over the valves also.

-Then to adjust the valve lash take your feeler gauge & toss it back in your tool box.. Make sure the valve being adjusted is closed & on the low place on the cam lobe,, then tighten the valve adjuster slowly until the push rod just becomes snug & the fore/aft movement just goes away,, then back the adjuster off 1/3 turn (that�s 2 nut flats if the nut moves with the adjuster).. That should leave your valve right close to .020� accounting for all the wear.. Using a feeler gauge on an older 2-cylinder usually leaves the valve lash too loose. The adjustment should also be made on a hot tractor (not just idle a while hot but a working hot engine).. Using a feeler gauge or adjusting them on a not working hot engine usually leaves them a little on the loose side. That leaves them noisy but on the other hand but loose valves are good for durability..

-I presume you got ALL the top ridge out when you had the cylinders machined? If there is much of a ridge left you could have a ring hitting that ridge.

-I suppose you could have a piston slap condition but those pistons usually just lay on the bottom of the cylinder bore & don�t make any noise until a load is applied so if the noise is at idle without a load that probably isn�t your problem..

-If you didn�t have the crankshaft turned you could have a loose rod bearing. Those crankshafts usually wear the rod journals egg shaped so even with the bearing clearance set you could have a loose spot just as it fires [worst wear place].

-OK, now on the wrist pins? YES, those could be loose & can be a problem area if worn or improperly honed when installed.. Probably the best approach there is to pull the crankcase cover, then pull the spark plug wires (for safety), then reach in & place your hand (or wedge a couple of fingers) between each piston & connecting rod top,, then rock the flywheel back & forth.. Any looseness or movement felt between the rod top & piston means loose wrist pins..

-Another place I have found noise on a those old 2-cylinders is crankshaft gear to governor gear play.. That is usually more pronounced at low idle or just as the engine rolls to a stop at shut down..

-There�s lots of other places an engine noise can emanate from like a crank throw hitting an oil line, a bent push rod hitting a tube or block passage, loose side clearance of the piston rings in a ring groove, flywheel spacer hitting the housing, excess crankshaft side play.. If the noise is more loose log sounding even a main bearing problem..

~Onto your fan gear whine problem.. You say..
Quote: --�I know that it needs matched governor/fanshaft Gears But I have a ton in it now!! The matched Gears whine and are a little loose.

-Those fan gears do tend to whine some if not reassembled back exactly to the same adjustment & heel setting as they were run at before.. They will usually quiet down in time though.

-The number one thing I usually find on those used fan gears making noise or even self destructing is not removing the gear teeth side flashing & worn tooth burrs before reassembling.. You need to take a stone or very fine file & remove all the tooth sharp flashing from the gear teeth.. That flashing usually shows up just outside the original worn in spots.. Another thing I find is setting-up used gears up too tight.. Those gears don�t wear evenly due to the harsh firing of the 2-cylinder engine so will run tighter in some tooth contact areas than other.. I never set a used set of gears up too tight & tend to set to the upper clearance range (at the tightest point in the gear rotation).. If the gear wear contact pattern shows those gears were run with a poor heel setting I tend to bias my setting towards the original contact alignment.. I have re-used many well run in fan gears in my life & as long as the teeth are honed free of any flashing & sharp edges & the teeth aren�t worm to a sharp point, & they aren�t set up too tight they usually quiet down after some run in time & don�t cause a problem..

-One last thing.. If you don�t have one, you might want to visit your local auto parts store or discount tool center & buy a mechanics stethoscope.. Those things are a real help in locating engine noises..

-If you want to do a little digging- try running that engine until hot (or the noise starts) then short one then other spark plug to ground & see if your noise changes,,,,, ,, Then try shorting the generator�s (F) post to a nice clean ground (usually need the engine running faster for this), that will place a high generator load on the governor gears, fan shaft & fan gears.. If that changes the noise to be less, your problem is probably from the governor up.

-Try towing the tractor in gear with a quiet running vehicle.. If the noise changes your noise is probably firing related..

-Make sure the fan clutch is working & not all frozen up..

-Try different ignition timing settings as that can change an engine noise & help with diagnostics.

If you can do some of the above & then post back with any changes or differences, or even add to our knowledge of when the noise happens, differences hot / cold, under load, driving the tractor, etc.. we can then make a more informed estimation..

Engine noises are hard enough to diagnose while working on the tractor let alone over the internet so the more feed back you can supply the closer we can get� Happy noise hunting�.


Clooney

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jsmiller

01-04-2005 05:45:59




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 Re: Peck in B Engine!!! in reply to JDClooney, 01-04-2005 03:59:31  
Crank has .003 clearance on rods and checked .001 out of round. the Block was bored and has about .005 side clearance with no upper ridge. Wrist pins are tight with no slop as they have just been renewed and honed out. The peck seems to be every other rotation as far as I can tell.The valve train seems to be tight and I know I have one valve a little loose and it clicks. the noise seems to be in the center of the motor more over the block on both sides even with a farmers stethiscope(screwdriver) The fanshaft gears is the only parts that has not been through a machine shop and I put in the Bearings In it and governor. The Gears are worn and rough.I have seen them so rough that the fan would Jump But they are not that rough. I checked the oil lines and none of them are hitting and I have the Rods Out!! when I roll it I do hear some backlash between the Cam gear and the crank Gear (with the rods out) but no slop, cannot feel or hear any loose parts when You roll It and nothing hitting. I have cancelled out each cylinder and the noise still occurrs. I have good oil pressure and even had to turn it down when I first ran it as it was too high.

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Clooney

01-04-2005 18:54:00




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 Re: Peck in B Engine!!! in reply to jsmiller, 01-04-2005 05:45:59  
Jsmiller, you say,,

Quote:--� The peck seems to be every other rotation as far as I can tell�
--Well that tells us it is either firing pulse initiated or governor / cam / valve train related..

You say it does it even without running so that pretty well eliminates firing pulses so that leaves cam on up through governor & valve train..

_Are both cam bushings tight & the cam pretty solid in it�s bushings?

_Is the cam follower guide tight? Are the lifters tight in the follower guide?

_Are you hearing the governor weights flopping around? Maybe a weight has come loose or bent & hitting the governor..

_ Is the magneto end of the governor tight & not moving fore/aft or vertically when pried on.. If it�s loose E-mail me for a procedure on using a spacer to move the R/H bearing in farther into a tighter place in the governor bore.

_Are the 3 bolts in the cam gear to cam tight? A little loosness there will really rattle.

_Any chance the wrong bolts were used to hold the cam gear on & one is too long & hitting something?

_Can you feel a kick in the governor top lever as the noise is happening?

If none of the above applies you will just have to keep digging until you find something,,


Clooney

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jsmiller

01-04-2005 20:34:47




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 Re: Peck in B Engine!!! in reply to Clooney , 01-04-2005 18:54:00  
I checked the governor weights, they are in there correct position and not loose and hitting. The noise is not prevelant when turning the engine over without it running!!! Just a small amount of backlsah in the cam/Crank gear. The cam bolts are correct and tight. I checked the engine when it was together and cancelled out the cylinders out.
I will check the Mag end of the governor Tommorrow. But when I checked the bore when I had it apart it was tight and the bearing fit tight.
Thanks so much for your guidance, But remember You are leading the insanely blind.
Jeff

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Mike M

01-04-2005 07:10:40




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 Re: Peck in B Engine!!! in reply to jsmiller, 01-04-2005 05:45:59  
I'm suspecting that out of round condition on the crank as I had a similar problem on my B and that is what it was.



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Lee B

01-03-2005 23:29:27




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 Re: Peck in B Engine!!! in reply to jsmiller, 01-03-2005 20:33:47  
Piston slap? How much clearance are you running between piston skirt and cylinder wall?

Governor gears could be the culprit as well. My recent teardown of same revealed that the governor bore where the right side bearing sits was worn badly, I used JB Weld to renew that area and hope it's a good, cheap fix - we'll see won't we? I also learned that the commonly recommended 1/2 inch slack at the fan blade is horribly too much, maximum slack at the fan blade diameter had better be less than 1/4 inch or you risk the gears eating each other down to nothing. By my calculations .200 inch clearance slack at fan blade diameter results in .010 at the gears which is on the loose side of where it should be, more like .003 to .006 would be much better. I also found with new gears that you can have .003 at one position and .000 at another so watch out for the zero condition as well. I suspect that with worn gears the zero condition would be a bit harder to find. New setups like your overhaul tend to make the gears whine for while, they will likely get quite very soon.

If the magneto 'driver' slot dohicky can move noticably then you have the same worn governor bore condition that I found to be the main culpret of my gears going south. That and/or too much gear clearance as I had. Use two screwdriver blades on opposite sides of drive slot to try and work it back and forth, if it moves such that you can see it, a new bearing is the least thing required here. Double check governor bearing bore while replacing right side bearing.

Please note that the 1/2 inch slack often quoted no doubt includes all the slack in all the gears including cam gears. The less than 1/4 inch I'm suggesting does NOT. I'm only concerned here with the governor/fan gear clearance. It is possible with a fine touch to preload the camshaft with valve spring tension such that one can feel the fan gear clearance and then with a little more effort, the 'other' gear clearances kick in. For my A that positon was LH impulse as marked on the flywheel on the compression stroke.

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bedrock 1234

01-04-2005 07:16:11




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 Re: Peck in B Engine!!! in reply to Lee B, 01-03-2005 23:29:27  
When you had the pistons out did you have the rods checked? I have heard of a bent conecting rod making this noise.



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