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First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70?

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Tye

05-15-2003 15:33:46




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I was thinking today at work, I know the 50 60 and 70 were the first John Deere tractors that had live pto, were they also the first tractors with live pto in the tractor industry as well? Thanks for any help.




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Jim W

05-15-2003 17:44:01




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 Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to Tye, 05-15-2003 15:33:46  
I think the first tractor tested at Nebraska was the Cockshutt 30 with independant PTO.



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David B

05-15-2003 17:20:15




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 Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to Tye, 05-15-2003 15:33:46  
I think Oliver introduced the independant PTO in 1948 with the introduction of the 66-77-88 series. May be some one else was first but that's what I remember. I could start reading but will let someone else do that. Allis Chalmers used a continious , not independant, on the WD intrduced in 1948.



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Ralph

05-15-2003 18:19:09




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 Re: Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to David B, 05-15-2003 17:20:15  
IF I remember correctly the WD PTO was clutched with the foot clutch as was the WC.The WD added an oil multi-disk clutch between the transmission and differential to stop forward motion. If I remember correctly at least some of the WC's had a way to clutch, disengage the drive shaft, re-engage clutch, as an aid to running a rotobaler or other PTO equipment.



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David B

05-15-2003 19:35:59




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 Re: Re: Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to Ralph, 05-15-2003 18:19:09  
I think the lever on the WC that you could disegage the engine from the transmission was to let you operate the mechanical lift without moving. The early WC, if you acidently dropped the cultivtor in the shed where you could not drive forward, you had to jack up a rear wheel and let it turn to get the cultivator up. Don't ask how I learned about this but I remember it well. Kinda like tripping a plow, you had to move forward to get it to come up.

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David B

05-15-2003 17:14:43




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 Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to Tye, 05-15-2003 15:33:46  
I think Oliver introduced the independant PTO in 1948 with the intrduction of the 66-77-88 series. May be somne one else was first but that's what I remember. I could start reading but will let someone else do that.



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Richard

05-15-2003 15:55:41




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 Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to Tye, 05-15-2003 15:33:46  
No, I have read the first make and particular model that sported the live pto, seperate from the engine clutch. But my memory is bad. My gues is either a IH, or a Allis model. My take is that Deere pioneered tractor hydraulics , and the front end roll-a-matic was unequilled by other makes.



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G-MAN

05-15-2003 15:54:14




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 Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to Tye, 05-15-2003 15:33:46  
The "R" Diesel Standard that was introduced in 1949 was the first Deere available with "live" PTO. I put live in parentheses because although it could be engaged without clutching, the system first had to be engaged with the engine off, as the powershaft was driven off the end of the crankshaft. Once that was engaged, a hand-controlled multi-disk clutch connected the actual PTO shaft to the powershaft. In my opinion, a true live PTO is one that can be engaged any time the engine is running simply by pulling one lever - such as that found on a 4020. The same basic system was then introduced on the 50/60/70, which became the first Deere row-crops with "live" PTO. It was an option on the 50/60/70, because they were still available with a "transmission-driven" PTO that worked the same as the previous letter-series tractors.

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Tim

05-15-2003 19:25:01




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 Re: Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to G-MAN, 05-15-2003 15:54:14  
How do you identify live vs. trans driven on these tractors that could have both?



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Lon

05-16-2003 05:43:44




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 Re: Re: Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to Tim, 05-15-2003 19:25:01  
Tim,on the 70, at least, the standard drive PTO is located on the centerline of the tractor. A live PTO comes out to the left(when looking from the rear) of the centerline. It's an obvious difference.



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F-I-T

05-15-2003 19:58:39




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 Re: Re: Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to Tim, 05-15-2003 19:25:01  
Tim:

You could have transmission driven OR engine driven, but not both.

On the transmission driven PTO, you would engage the lever to move the driving gear into position so that when the clutch pulley turned, you had PTO shaft motion. So in neutral or in any gear, you had PTO.

On the engine driven option, you would engage the lever to move a gear into position that would be driven from the engine crankshaft. As long as the engine was running, you had shaft movement, but it could be engaged/disengaged by means of a separate PTO clutch found in a housing just before the PTO shaft at the rear of the tractor. On the 50/60/70 (with which I'm most familiar) there was a PTO clutch lever located on the lower right side of the battery box. When you raised that lever the PTO clutch was engaged, and when you lowered it, it was disengaged and a PTO shaft brake held it still.

Frank-in-Tallahassee
70D // 855

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F-I-T

05-15-2003 17:30:19




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 Re: Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to G-MAN, 05-15-2003 15:54:14  
G-Man:

C'mon now !

I have to take issue with your statement that the "R" style live PTO was not truly live "because although it could be engaged without clutching, the system first had to be engaged with the engine off, as the powershaft was driven off the end of the crankshaft." You make it sound like you had to engage that lever everytime you were going to start the engine. and where else would you drive a live power trian other than off the crankshaft ?

You can put that lever in the engaged position and never move it again. In fact, I don't know the last time mine was disengaged. Probably around 1971. No, take that back, I tried it while I was overhauling the engine last year, and put it back in just as fast. It was just a way to disengage a gear train in the event you didn't need it like when you were plowing. You could do the same with the Powr-Trol pump. Why waste gear time and energy turning pumps and shafts when you were going to be pulling a pull-type trip lift plow for the next three weeks ? I thought it was kind of novel, not burdensome.

BTW, they sure as heck let you disconnect that Power-Shift transmission on a 4020 when you needed to get it to crank a tad easier in cold weather. Not turning unnecessary gears, pumps, and shafts can be helpful even on the newer designs.

Frank-in-Tallahassee
70D // 855

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G-MAN

05-16-2003 09:53:39




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 Re: Re: Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to F-I-T, 05-15-2003 17:30:19  
Not trying to start a big ruckus, but I happen to have an original 50/60/70 sales brochure that also lists the PTO as being "live" and not live, just like I posted. Apparently the engineers would disagree with you. I used Deere's own punctuation for that reason. I'm sure you're also aware that the "R" required the PTO to be engaged for the hydraulics to funtion, which wasn't necessary on the 50/60/70. I consider a live PTO to be one that is always there and always ready. Many guys did disengage the PTO gears (I own a 60 and keep them disengaged to prevent unnecessary wear), and if they happened to forget to engage it before trying to operate the PTO, they sure didn't have a live PTO at that point, did they? The brochure recommended the system as being able to provide some extra power by disengaging the PTO drive gears, which also saved wear. I don't really see what a 4020 powershift has to do with anything, as you immediately re-engaged the disconnect clutch after starting to avoid starving the main hydraulic pump for oil, because the trans pump wasn't turning with the disconnect released. That wasn't due to the design of the system, but more due to the fact that cranking systems weren't what they are today. I don't consider a 4020 to be that modern, and there certainly is not similar system on any new JD tractor. And no, I didn't make it sound like you had to engage the lever to start the engine. I said you had to have the engine stopped when engaging the PTO gears, which is the case. There isn't a thing in my post that isn't found in the Deere literature.

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Big Roy

05-15-2003 21:33:54




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 Re: Re: Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to F-I-T, 05-15-2003 17:30:19  
Ok, I'm curious now...I've got a '51 R and all the manuals but I have read or seen on the tractor a lever(or whatever) to disengage the pto gear. I was under the impression that that gear also runs the trans pump and was always turning when the engine was running and that to only disconcet for the pto/hydraulics was the clutch pack. What/where should I look to find this?
Thanks
Roy
51 R
43 A

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F-I-T

05-16-2003 07:07:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to Big Roy, 05-15-2003 21:33:54  
Big Roy:

This was probably a case where we were commenting about "R" type PTO drives, and should have said specifically 50/60/70 which have disengagement levers for the PTO gears (they also don't have transmission pumps).

I looked through the parts catalog for the 'R' and I can't find any such lever. Maybe someone else can confirm this, but until then, I know for sure that I was wrong in saying there was a lever on an 'R' to engage/disengage the PTO drive at the crankshaft.

AND, if there is indeed no disengage lever, then no one should say that the 'R' didn't live PTO (which is what got us to this point in the discussion anyway !).

Sorry for any confusion.

Frank-in-Tallahassee
70D // 855

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Big Roy

05-17-2003 02:54:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to F-I-T, 05-16-2003 07:07:28  
Thanks. No confusion, I was just wondered if I was missing something on my tractor that the others might have had.

Big Roy

p.s. Didn't mean to stir the pot...



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G-MAN

05-16-2003 10:00:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to F-I-T, 05-16-2003 07:07:28  
So I guess that would mean that an "R" has a live PTO, while your "70" and my "60" only have a "live" PTO.



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F-I-T

05-16-2003 12:12:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to G-MAN, 05-16-2003 10:00:20  
G-Man:

Remember, when Deere was publishing that original literature, "Live" in quotes meant it was new selling option, too. Like in Austin Powers "Laser Beam"...

I truly do not understand the difference you 're trying to establish.

I have to option to disengage the pump, or disengage the drive train to the pto, individually and optionally. But, whence engaged, I can elect to use them via a PTO clutch or a Powr-Trol lever.

If I cut off the PTO lever at the main case while it was in the engaged position, and removed the pump "On/Off" handle while it was in the engaged position, then I would always have live pto and hydraulics. This would make a difference to you ?!?

If it does, then have at it. My live PTO and hydraulics work just fine. Just don't tell my tractor it's not live.

Frank

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G-MAN

05-16-2003 13:09:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to F-I-T, 05-16-2003 12:12:42  
Whatever. We can agree to disagree if that's what it takes. I'll even admit that you're right if it makes you happy. But, since you apparently have some knowledge on JD sales literature and what the intentions of the authors were, maybe you can answer a question. "Live" PTO had been used on a previous model, the "R". I think that's been established. If the parentheses were used to denote a new selling option, even though that option wasn't new to Deere, having been used for several years, why weren't Power-Steering and Duplex-Carburetion also put in parentheses? Those were selling options that hadn't been used on ANY farm tractor before, let alone a JD. Why were they not distinguished by being put in parentheses? And to answer your question, in my opinion, you still would not have a true live PTO or live hydraulics, because you haven't changed a thing about the operation characteristics of the system. You've only removed your control over it. Kind of like bypassing a neutral-start safety system. You can do it, but it's not especially smart to do so. If you leave the pump and PTO on all the time, more power to you. But, you might ask some guy that's accidentally turned one off, or purposely did it and forgot to re-engage the system before starting the tractor, just how live it was when he needed it. I've done it a couple of times, because I don't see the point in running things for no reason, and when I went to engage the PTO, I didn't have a live PTO. In fact, I didn't have any PTO at all now that I think about it. I don't think I've ever had that problem in a 4440, 8400 etc, but those must be a different type of "live" PTO.

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F-I-T

05-16-2003 15:59:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to G-MAN, 05-16-2003 13:09:20  
G-Man:

You're getting really cranky, and now it's no fun. I disagree with you. Plain and simple. I say just because JD retained the engenge/disengage lever on the live PTO gear train doesn't detract from the functionality, which is that the PTO shaft could be started and stopped on command without tractor clutch intervention.

Now, have you ever wondered why the lever is even in the main case ?

I think it might have been because that part of the main case was assembled before the line knew whether it was going to eventually be a transmission driven or engine driven pto ! I don't see any other reason for them to have even spent the money on installing those parts. But it's one of the first things to go in. Now this wouldn't be a first time that a line deemed it was cheaper to just include parts in assembly that may or may not be needed later on. It also kept the tractor "looking" familiar to the farmer-buyer, but I can't see any reason that they installed the lever in the first place, except that for non-engagement feature that could be purported to be useful for times when you didn't need the pto and could minimize wear and tear.

First off, they're quotation marks and not parentheses. The quotation marks were probably not used on Power-Steering term, because some cars and trucks had already been to market with it. Like "Air-conditioning" They didn't own the term, like they did "PowR-Trol". Power Steering systems had been offered on many cars and trucks and as retro-fit by after marketters for a number iof years before Deere came out with the fully-integral, factory installed system on the 50/60/70 models. A lot of that literature talks about that Power-Steering system being Factory and integral. That was a big difference. I don't know that it was a first power steering system in the industry, but it was a first for a tractor in that it was factory installed and integral. I think that was a selling point. Duplex carburetion is a cute term, but it just means one barrel per cylinder, and some engines had already been marketed with multi-port carburetion. They didn't duplex the load side anyway.

Now you say that I removed control over the system when I magically removed the lever. What control ? The ability to turn it off ? I can engage/disengage that PTO clutch lever any time I want. You said if I have the ability to turn it off, and can't re-engage that system with the engine running makes it not live in some way. I still don't get it. It's live. I sometimes choose to turn it off to save energy and wear, that's a choice I could make.

Then you say I might ask the guy who kicked the PTO lever out of gear because he now doesn't have any PTO at all ? Are you going to tell me next that when I run out of fuel I lost the features on my tractor ? I think you're stretching.

The whole of point of having live, engine driven versus transmission driven PTO was that you could operate the PTO independently from the tractor clutch. And you could.

The rest is semantics.

Kirk out.

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Big Roy

05-15-2003 21:35:10




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to Big Roy, 05-15-2003 21:33:54  
Opps...ment to say "...I haven't ever read or seen...."



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F-I-T

05-15-2003 15:53:57




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 Re: First Live PTO on JD 50, 60, 70? in reply to Tye, 05-15-2003 15:33:46  
Tye:

I can't help you on the first industry use of "Live" PTO on a production model, but the '50/60/70' were not the first JD models to offer live pto.

I know that the Model 'R' Diesel was offered with live PTO, and I think the first JD with live hydraulic power was the Model 'H'.

Frank-in-Tallahassee
70D // 855



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