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Internal resisted coil

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Scott

04-19-2003 08:11:58




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I have a 12 volt p/g system with a delco dist. using an internal resisted coil on a 1950 A. My question has to do with the coil wiring. Just because it has an internal resistor doesn't change the way it should be wired , does it? The + coil lead goes to the dist, and the - lead goes to the key switch, correct? Thanks Scott




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scottAR

04-20-2003 19:47:14




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 Re: internal resisted coil in reply to Scott , 04-19-2003 08:11:58  
I got dizzy after reading all that deep discussion, then I remembered why I like diesels. If I tried to store that much info under my scalp it would blow up! (Just kidding)



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Duane Larson

04-19-2003 13:18:34




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 Re: internal resisted coil in reply to Scott , 04-19-2003 08:11:58  
Scott,
There is another aspect to this matter that has not been brought up by John T or Clooney. Spark plug companies make it very clear in their literature that the center electrode of the plug is to be negative relative to the ground strap. The reason for this is the center electrode is much hotter than the ground strap of the plug, as the strap is connected directly to the shell, and thus to the cooling in the head or block while the center electrode has to cool by transferring heat up the insulator to the shell. Electrons are emitted from the negative electrode in a plug to the positive electrode. It is much easier for electrons to leave a hot surface than a cold one. Hence the plug is more efficient if emitting electrons from the center electrode to the ground strap, rather than from the relatively cold ground strap to the hot center electrode. An analogy is emission of electrons from the (hot) cathode to the (cold) plate in a radio tube.

So, how do you tell if the center electrode is negative relative to the plug shell (ie, tractor)? There are several ways, perhaps the easiest is to find a small neon bulb. They are available at hardware stores, and are used as a cheap way to tell if voltage is available in a circuit. The neon bulb has two visible electrodes, and the negative electrode is the one that glows in a dc circuit (they will alternate glowing in 60 cycle ac in your home, so both appear to glow). Connect one terminal of the neon test light to the spark plug wire where it connects to the plug, and the other to a good ground on the tractor. Turn the key on and operate the starter - you will see one of the two electrodes flash brightly as the distributor points open to fire the plug. If it is the electrode connected to the spark plug terminal the coil is wired properly. If the ground electrode glows brightly, reverse the connections at the coil primary and try again. I have studied this matter in the shop with scopes, etc., and there is a noticeable difference at the plug which is dependent on how the coil is hooked up. Generally, on JDs with + ground the distributor is connected to the + side of the coil.
Sorry for the long post - there are other ways to test also - email me if you are interested.
Regards,
Duane Larson

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Clooney

04-20-2003 09:10:05




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 Re: Re: internal resisted coil in reply to Duane Larson, 04-19-2003 13:18:34  
Duane, I'm going to agree with you in theory but have to disagree with you in practice. Your basic theory is right on, but we don't live in perfect world so sometimes a little has to be given here to get more there. While it does take a little more KV to jump a plug gap from base electrode to the center electrode [it's my personal belief] that this is off-set by the internal resistor being between the coil's primary winding & points/condenser. If we were talking about a non internally resisted coil I would totally agree with you, but that built in resistor kind of skews the equation. [see my follow up to Lee below].
~You have to keep in mind that Deere uses both plug polarities at the same time on the pony as every other plug fires reverse polarity & most new cars & trucks fire every other plug at reverse polarity.
~I'm not sure it makes a big difference either way as long as the coil produces enough KV to jump the plug gap in either direction & the internal coil resistor is insulated enough to not arc to the coil case, & can still properly limit coil [points] current at both high & low engine RPM's....
~One of these days I'm going to install my old Sun analog ammeter between the coil & distributor & see if I can measure a difference in current at all RPM's between the coil & points with an internally resisted coil wired both ways.
~Do you have any feelings on how that internal resistor effects the spark if placed between the coil & points/condenser?...

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John T

04-20-2003 16:05:49




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 Re: Re: Re: internal resisted coil in reply to Clooney , 04-20-2003 09:10:05  
I think in a vacuum tube where theres a great delta T with the heater under the cathode electrons, of course, emit easier that way off the cathode. On a spark plug, sure the strap is cooler than the electrode, but I wonder how much cooler????? ??? I used to hear how easier to emit electrons was one of the reasons for pos grnd, but it seems that system didnt stand the test of time, so Im not sure of the validity of that story I used to hear????? I think Im gona hit the old books and research this very topic, cuz i dont understand all I know about it lol. Great thread. John T

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John T

04-19-2003 15:27:48




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 Re: Re: internal resisted coil in reply to Duane Larson, 04-19-2003 13:18:34  
Hey there again Duane, this goes along some with our recent e mails. You spoke of the pencil lead test also when we were at Gathering of the Green. We all agree how the coil is wired affects spark gap energy expended and I plan some future deeper research on that very subject. I am certainly intersted in your thoughts or experiments about if the ballast is between the coil and condensor, it causes a weaker spark per my post below. Take care. John T

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Clooney

04-19-2003 10:22:39




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 Re: internal resisted coil in reply to Scott , 04-19-2003 08:11:58  
Scott, that's an excellent question. It depends on where the resistor is wired in the coil. ~Probably the best way to handle that problem is if using an original Deere [or known] positive ground internal resisted coil have the + terminal of the coil go to the distributor [points ground]. If the coil is an auto store internal resistor, or known negative ground coil have the - terminal of the coil going to the distributor.
~If in doubt try it wired both ways, if it seems to function better one way than the other leave it that way. If it doesn't make a difference that you can tell then it won't matter what way it's wired..... ..

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John T (G Taylor, Gerald, Clooney, Dr Miller, others help out)

04-19-2003 09:21:06




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 Re: internal resisted coil in reply to Scott , 04-19-2003 08:11:58  
Scott, after a few good e mail discussion between the good ol clooney man and myself, we agree (didnt disagree before, just brainstormed the subject a bit) that it does make a differencve as to how you should wire an internal ballsted resistor. Heres why. As you know, you wire an external ballast so the ballast comes first, then the coil and then the points and condensor. As you may also know, the coil will fire with no condensor at all in the circuit, but you have more spark energy if its there. I believe the condensor kicks back some of its stored energy into the coil which would get absorbed instead by the ballast if it were wired between the condensor and coil, so I think any internal ballasted coil must be wired so the ballast is first leaving the condensor next to the coil. While I dont know how the internal ballast is wired or located, I bet many (maybe not JD originals???) are intended for neg grnd systems and the ballast is between the + terminal and the coils primary input. Therefore, I suggest an internal ballast coil have its - terminal to the distributor REGARDLESS of how the tractors polarity is configured.

CAVEAT Still, regardless of where the ballast is in the primary circuit, the complete circuit consists of the ballast, coil, points and its parallell condensor, so for the circuit path to be complete, it wouldnt make any difference where the ballast were which makes my above theoery totally worthless lol. Maybe Gerald, G Taylor and Dr. Charles Miller and the Clooney man and others can add more insight here????? I hope so

This is speculation only and I would not bet a great amount on its therory unless I dissected a coil and actually saw where the ballast was wired. However, for now at least until I do some research and examine the coils, thats my story and Im stickin to it lol. Wire the internal ballasted coils with their - terminal to the distributor, regardless.

God Bless the USA Ol John T Nordhoff

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Lee

04-20-2003 06:30:10




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 Re: Re: internal resisted coil in reply to John T (G Taylor, Gerald, Clooney, Dr Miller, others help out), 04-19-2003 09:21:06  
John, the capacitor (condensor) is there to balance the inductance of the coil. Without the capacitor, some primary current will always attempt to bridge the opening points causing not only a weaker spark to be generated, but also transferring metal between the point contacts themselves - kinda like a mini-arc welder. With the capacitor, this 'bridgeing' current then simply charges the capacitor instead of arc welding between the opening points and wasting spark energy needlessly. This 'appears' to make the spark hotter with the capacitor than it is without the capacitor as initial spark voltage will be higher and faster to build up with the capacitor than it would be without it.

One benefit of having a proper sized capacitor VS coil inductance is that the points last longer. Without the capacitor, a pit and a matching peak will build up on the points themselves. When the capacity of the capacitor matches the inductance of the coil then there is no pit or peak creation on the points. This last part is from an old Motor's Repair Manual (1967).

I'm not sure if I can chime in with your theory on the capacitor 'kicking' energy in though. It certainly helps getting things started faster, but as Duane will attest, one can observe the spark voltage on an engine oscilloscope and watch the spark for its whole duration. It's always only one polarity for standard point/coil ignition systems. In order to kick in extra energy there would have to be a polarity reversal as well and that is not observed on engine scopes. Temporarily, battery voltage across the capacitor is exceeded if that is what you mean by 'kicking in', but that in itself doesn't help make a hotter spark as there is almost no current involved. Voltage swing back also occurs due to the capacitor but that happens after the spark has fizzled out, again viewable on an engine scope. Further, I know of no electronic ignition system that requires or recommends the use of the 'old' capacitor - as if to say that it is no longer a neccessary component and only useful for point systems. The entire amount of energy available for spark generation comes from the stored energy in the coil's inductance only. The capacitor only keeps some of that energy from wasting away across the opening points.

My main trouble with internal ballast resistor coils is the concept of them in the first place. Until you and Clooney exposed me to this, I had not ever even considered their existance. The way the 3 ohm coil should be built (and I just assumed it always so) is to use a longer length of smaller copper wire for the primary winding than is used in the 1.5 ohm coil. But the way something _should_ be built and the way it actually is will always be a factor - so the possiblilty does exist for a 1.5 ohm coil to have an internal resistor of 1.5 ohms for a total of 3 ohms. And it could be that this is the way it has always been done as that would certainly be the cheaper way to make a 3 ohm coil when you already have a factory making 1.5 ohm coils. As to where the resistor exists in the schematic of such a coil, I would not like to have say for sure until I get it in my hands, but I would assume and hope it is in the same postion as you have suggested.

Since the switch from 6 to 12 volts also occured about the time the switch from positive to negative ground occured and the fact that 3 ohm coils didn't make their appearance for several years after those two happened first, I would have to suggest that all 3 ohm coils are made for negative ground with rare, known(?), blatent exceptions allowed? Thus, reto-fitting one to a positive ground tractor would result in the wrong polarity of the spark, which is a much more important aspect than where the resistor actually is. So I would have to disagree with the blanket statement '- to distributor always'. Despite how the resistor argument complicates things, a retro-fitted positive ground system needs the + side of the coil going to the distributor points.

This would put the resistor between the capacitor/points and the coil windings which is no small concern as it would halve the charging rate of the capacitor outright. This should result in a somewhat less energetic spark than if you were to retro-fit with an external ballast resistored coil (1.5 ohm). The idea being to keep the resistor on the ignition switch side of the coil at all times for the hottest possible spark. Only solution I can see for this dilemma is to never retrofit 12 volt, postive ground systems with 3 ohm coils, instead use only 1.5 ohm coils with an external ballast resistor on the ignition switch side of the coil. Stick with 6 volt, postive ground or go whole hog with 12 volt, negative ground are a couple of other angles that work, the latter being the one I chose for my non-parade, working 43 A, with that ugly alternator hanging out the side. One other option for the 'Green Police' might be to use resistor wire from the ignition switch to the 1.5 ohm coil and then just don't tell anybody?

Just my 2 cents worth and my opinions, no big deal if you or anyone else disagrees. I certainly felt the need to 'weigh in' on this and thanks for the invitation. A very good, interesting topic and one I'll continue to track in the group. Especially when someone starts opening up some of these 3 ohm coils, I would have never thought that there even might be a resistor in there without you two - thanks for gettting me to think a little bit. If they went bad more often I would have a couple to sacrifice to the cause.

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John T (Yo all u guys)

04-20-2003 15:58:20




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 Re: Re: Re: internal resisted coil in reply to Lee, 04-20-2003 06:30:10  
Great discussion Lee, I think we all agree the ballast should be before and not between the coil and condensor. As far as - always to distributor, thats meant (in my post) for internal ballasted coils that are for neg ground auto systems as I beleive they would have the ballst on the + side. We need to disect an original JD pos grnd coil and see where its ballast is before we can guess lol at how to wire them. I tell people who have no testers who suspect a bad shorted condensor to take it out and try for a spark cuz we know it will fire that way, just not as hot. On what I called kicback energy of teh condensor, Im thinking maybe when the points open, if there is a condensor, the current kick from the stored primary energy (if no condensor were present) arcs quickly across the points, while if it has a condensor, it flows slower and into the condensor and therefore with the condensor, you get more energy imparted over into the secondary. Of course, with no condensor, that arcing current would cause premature burn up of the points. Maybe clooney will disect an original JD pos grnd condensor some day and let us know what he finds. Great thread. John T

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Lee

04-20-2003 21:27:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: internal resisted coil in reply to John T (Yo all u guys), 04-20-2003 15:58:20  
Thanks John, and you too, good stuff. I was also talking of generic automotive type replacement coils as I didn't know about Deere hanging on to the old ways for so long. We'll just have to agree to disagree on those generic types as I still feel that wrong spark polarity is a worse no-no than running the system with the resistor in between the capacitor and the windings, but I do see the definite need to get into one of the Deere type 3 ohm postive ground coils to see which way it is laid out. Then you can consider me on the team with you two. Your further clarification of kick back stuff is right on the money. That energy that is not wasted arcing across opening points does show up in the secondary as a hotter, longer spark - so we even agree on this aspect too.

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Clooney

04-20-2003 08:52:41




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 Re: Re: Re: internal resisted coil in reply to Lee, 04-20-2003 06:30:10  
Lee, most of the early 12 volt Deere's used a [positive] ground internally resisted coil as all the 2-cylinder Deere's were positive ground. Deere didn't go to by-pass starting that used an external ballast resistor & 6 volt [under 2 ohm type] coil until late in the 2 number run, & even then some didn't get the by-pass starting until the 3 digit 20 series. [that was done for starting performance]
~While I'm not an ignition system expert I have done a fair amount of testing on those systems for starting, point longevity, & high speed misfire. The problem with just increasing the coil's windings to equal 3+ ohms is that ALWAYS limits the coil current, & as you know at low engine RPM's, the points are closed plenty long enough to allow the current to reach a level limited by the total primary circuit resistance, then at higher engine RPM's, the points open before the current can reach it's maximum. In fact, at very high engine RPM's the current may not reach a value high enough to provide enough spark & the engine could misfire.... If done correctly, the use of an internal coil resistor instead of extra primary windings can allow the current to remain fairly constant due to using an iron type resistor winding that changes resistance with temperature. That allows the resistor to limit primary current at low RPM's [it heats up] & still maintain enough current at high RPM's [it cools off] to produce a solid spark at higher engine RPM's but still protect the points at low engine RPM's.
~Now comes the speculation from me & John & probably everybody else that wants to add their input...My belief is that; seeing as the condenser [capacitor] has a big effect on the coils primary collapse time, putting that resistor between the coil's primary & condenser will adversely effect the coil's collapse rate & can cause a lower spark intensity, or even a spark bleed off before the KV can build high enough to jump the plug gap. The condenser also has an effect on the coil's 3rd harmonics [not sure how much effect that has in the real world though] so placing a resistor between the coil & condenser will effect that also.
~I guess none of his makes any difference IF the coil can produce more than enough KV at ALL engine speeds to always jump the plug gap under all conditions with either ground polarity & still not adversely effect point life.....

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Lee

04-20-2003 22:49:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: internal resisted coil in reply to Clooney , 04-20-2003 08:52:41  
Clooney, your experiance with Deere clearly shines through here as I'm more of an automotive mechanic with a couple of tractors. With my information base now being corrected, I have to say that my previous suggestions were based on only negative ground generic 3 ohm coils and hope that anybody reading this thread can keep it all straight. A genuine Deere 3 ohm positive ground coil sure does throw a monkey wrench into things - how about flat out 'no comment' from me as far as suggestions on how to hook it up?
Points on thermal properties of resistor coils is well taken and very valid. They didn't come out with dual point distributors and other such items for no reason too, it seems point/coil systems have always run at the limits of reliabilty VS economic/performance compromise.
I guess my point to make on the resistor placement issue is that it's much more important to get the spark polarity right than it is to put the resistor in the 'right' place. Your last point granted always - it seems to me that the resistor would only take away 1/2 of the function of the capacitor. And as John has stated many times and is right - they will run without the capacitor entirely, badly perhaps, but they will run. Add half a capacitor and you still get horrible point life, but it _should_ run OK. But I've seen em come in where the coil was put in backwards and the owner wanted to trade it off if only he could sell it as is but he couldn't since he could barely get it to the shop. Turn the coil around for him and he keeps it for two more years. Anecdotes prove nothing except to explain my leanings towards what I consider the greater evil which in this case is spark polarity being more important than resistor placement. Of course I would take all measures to avoid either like the plague.
We all agree that the resistor placement does have an effect. I say only 1/2 of original function - you say 'big effect', I can go with that. Good stuff Clooney, thanks.

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