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Electrical question

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Clyde scott

03-18-2003 13:11:29




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Gents:
I have an old Wisconsin engine that I'm trying to get going. It seems to run OK but is very hard starting on it's 6 volt system. Once it gets going, it runs very good.. I'm thinking of changing the battery to 12 VDC (remain @ + ground) and leave the 6 VDC coil on it. What value of resister would I need to put in line with the coil..?? (I forgot ohms law several years ago..!!) I would like to continue running this engine using the 6 VDC generator as well.. I can disconnect the battery once it it up and running and the motor continues to run..(thats a good thing) Any suggestions helpful or am I crazy..
BTW, This ole gal came off of an old JD cotton picker.

Clyde Scott - Moultrie, GA.

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Lee

03-18-2003 19:30:17




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 Re: Electrical question in reply to Clyde scott, 03-18-2003 13:11:29  
Sounds like you'd be better off with one of those cheap 6 to 12 volt starting solenoids. You only get 12 volts from 2 six volt batteries when you hit the re-wired starter button. The solenoid takes care of the rest. 12 volts to the starter and coil (just for starting), and then when started you got 2 six volt batteries charging from your 6 volt generator. We used one in a six volt Volkswagen for years before we upgraded to 12 volts straight. Might have to look very hard for one these days, but if I remember correctly it was only like $25 or so. The big rigs used something similar several decades ago too, but that solenoid weighs about 15 pounds by itself. The one we used was only twice as big as standard old Ford type starter solenoid. Best bet is the oldest parts house in town.

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Clooney

03-18-2003 14:01:55




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 Re: Electrical question in reply to Clyde scott, 03-18-2003 13:11:29  
Clyde, I'm not sure you will be able to do what you want to do. You probably can start it & run it on 12 volts but will need a ballast resistor [the resistance will depend on the coil's resistance & load [the load changes with RPM due to points dwell time]. I would start with around a 1.5 ohm auto ballast resistor [NAPA has a 1.8 unit that is cheap & will be a good place to start] then monitor the coils [battery side] voltage when running [you will want around 6-7 running volts]. ~The problem you will have with trying to start on 12 volts then disconnecting the battery will be, there will be no load for the generator to charge into & without a system load the generator will probably fluctuate wildly & the regulator won't last long. The voltage could actually exceed 12+ volts without a load to modulate the generator output. {kind of like running a well pump without a storage tank}. ~If you are set on starting on 12 then running on 6 you might consider 2-6 volt batteries & a solenoid to hook them together during cranking only, then either rig the charging system to charge both as 6- volters or a simple switch to allow one battery at a time to be charged. ~If you are going to try to run it on 6-volts & start it on 12 you won't need a ballast resistor as it will maintain the stock 6 volt running voltage...

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Clyde Scott

03-18-2003 16:14:16




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 Re: Re: Electrical question in reply to Clooney , 03-18-2003 14:01:55  
Clooney:
Isn't this the scheme JD used in the 620 orchard series. They have 12 volts on the coil as long as power is to the cranking motor (hotter spark), and when you let go of the starter switch, the resistor taked the coil voltage down to 6 volts. this does not leave the generator or voltage regulator running open and wild. Just a thought..
Clyde Scott - Moultrie, GA.



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Clooney

03-18-2003 16:39:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Electrical question in reply to Clyde Scott, 03-18-2003 16:14:16  
Clyde, maybe I misunderstood your original question. I thought you wanted to completely disconnect the 12 volt battery from the system after starting? Were you wanting to leave the 12 volt battery hooked to the generator & just drop the coil voltage to 6 volts while running?
~If so you can easily do that by using a voltage reducer or ballast resistor in the coil feed wire & by-passing the resistor & running 12 volts to the coil during cranking.... You want your total coil circuit resistance [including the ballast resistor] to be between 3 & 3.5 ohms when the coil & resistor are hot & running at 12-14 volts. That's needed to not burn the points or overheat the coil. The problem is...It is really hard to measure the resistance when the coil & resistor are carrying current when in use, so you really have to measure running voltage at the ign switch side of the coil [6-7 volts desired, running & hot].
~As for using your 6 volt generator at a 12-14 volt output? That's possible but will depend on the generator type [2 or 3 brush], & it's basic output. Any idea what brand & size generator in on that tractor? Is it a 3 brush generator with a cut-out relay? If it's a standard sized Delco 2 brush it will work as long as you keep the RPM's up & don't use many lights. You will need to set the regulator up to about 13.7 volts or install a 12 volt regulator. If it's a 3 brush you might get the 13.7 & might not, depending on the generator style & base output. Can you tell us what type & brand of generator? Is it a cut-out system, or voltage regulated?

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Clyde Scott

03-18-2003 16:49:15




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Electrical question in reply to Clooney , 03-18-2003 16:39:23  
Clooney:
Thats correct..12 volts just for starting.. As for the generator, Guess i'm only interested in it helping with the running of the motor once started. The 12 volt battery would only be used to start the motor. I'll actually charge it with a old battery carger when it needs it.. This is an old Wisconsin model TFD motor. Came off of an old JD cotton picker. Using it on a homw brewed log splitter. Thanks..
Clyde Scott - Moultrie, GA.

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Clooney

03-18-2003 17:27:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Electrical question in reply to Clyde Scott, 03-18-2003 16:49:15  
Clyde, if you only want to use the 12 volt battery to start it, what are you planning on using to power the ign coil to run it? ~What do you use to start it? A key type switch or & pushbutton Or ? If it's a mechanical type starting system it isn't real easy to install a by-pass system, if a pushbutton or key type it's easy to install a by-pass system.



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Clyde Scott

03-18-2003 17:52:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Electrical question in reply to Clooney , 03-18-2003 17:27:02  
It's a pushbutton..

As for the coil power, It runs OK off the generator once started.. I know the resistor placement will need to be just after the on/off switch and prior to the amp meter which is where the generator power in inserted.

CS



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Clooney

03-18-2003 18:02:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Electrical question in reply to Clyde Scott, 03-18-2003 17:52:58  
Clyde, if you are planning on running that tractor off the generator without a battery hooked to it I don't recommend that. The regulator [if regulator equipped] won't last long & the voltage will probably flair way up & could be even higher than 12 volts. If it's a 3 brush, move the 3rd brush as close to the power brush as possible & see if it will make over 12 volts when hooked to a 12 volt battery, if so run it like that.....

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Clyde Scott

03-19-2003 04:19:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Electrical question in reply to Clooney , 03-18-2003 18:02:18  
Will Do.. Thanks for the help, as always..

Clyde Scott - Moultrie, GA.



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F-I-T

03-18-2003 14:46:26




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 Re: Re: Electrical question in reply to Clooney , 03-18-2003 14:01:55  
Clooney:

I'm not sure where Clyde will end up with this, but if he decides to go the start on 12v, run on 6v route, this might be a good place to use one of those solid state voltage regulators, LM309K. With those you put 12 volts in and get a smooth and solid 5v out. If he rigged a by-pass ignition wire to it, and the coil could stand a 12v hit for a bit, it would crank furious, spark like all get out, and then settle in to run on a cool 5 v at the coil.

Only problem is, I just don't have any idea how much draw a coil has. You might have to run 2 or 3 in parallel to spread out the case heat (or maybe use a fierce heatsink), but I think 5 volts would run it after it had fired up.

Frank-in-Tallahassee
70D // 855

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Clooney

03-18-2003 16:08:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Electrical question in reply to F-I-T, 03-18-2003 14:46:26  
Frank, J.R. Brillman has a 12 to 6 volt reducer that's only about $5.50. It's good for 4 amps @ 12-13 volts. He recommends that for 6 volt coils on a 12 volt system..



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F-I-T

03-19-2003 08:51:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Electrical question in reply to Clooney , 03-18-2003 16:08:07  
Clooney:

Doesn't an item called a "voltage reducer" sound an awful lot like a wire-wound ohm and a half, 4 amp resistor ?

I think that's the same unit that some of the old car parts pages are pushing.

What I wish they'd make is a unit similar to the LM309K, only with an output of 6 or 6.5 VDC, and at a couple amps. The 5 VDC one is great for TTL logic circuits, but not very handy for coils.

Frank-in-Tallahassee
70D // 855

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Steve - IN

03-18-2003 15:11:10




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 Re: Re: Re: Electrical question in reply to F-I-T, 03-18-2003 14:46:26  
Frank,

That Nat Semi part is rated at somewhere around 800 to 1000 mA. I measured the draw of a 6 volt coil on my 4 banger tractor at ~4.7 amps (part of playing around to see how many lights and junk I could hang on the system). Also measured 6.8 volts going to the coil, wonder how it would run with 5V going in. The prices for something that handles that much current and spits out 6V escalate fairly dramatically -- unless, as you say, he home brews the thing and has a monster heat sink.

Steve

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Steve - IN

03-18-2003 13:43:33




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 Re: Electrical question in reply to Clyde scott, 03-18-2003 13:11:29  
Clyde,
A dropping resistor in the 2 to 3 ohm range and rated to handle 35 to 50 watts should put you in the ball park. The complication is the generator (which doesn't care about the voltage) but the regulator or cutout running things does. The whole project might get a bit more complicated than you want if it's a VR and if you want the 12V battery charged by the system. Probably easier and a more certain bet to buy a new regulator or cutout instead of trying to dial up the old one.

I had a similar problem with a 6 volt starter on a tractor a week ago. It had literally frozen over the winter. Pulled the starter, replaced the brushes, greased up the shaft at front and rear and cleaned it with contact cleaner. Turns over as fast as my 12 volt machines now. That fix didn't cost much either! I've got a 6V Optima battery on that machine which is rated at 850 CCA - they show up for 40 to 50 bucks on Ebay every once in a while. That's probably the main reason for the fast turning -- but nonetheless I'd take a look at that option first as an easier path than re-engineering the electrical system.

Steve

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