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John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum
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Balancing the 2 cylinders

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Arden Hills

01-04-2004 07:00:44




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First of all, thanks Clooney et.al. for responding earlier on my desire to obtain or make a dynamometer. I may be able to land an old M&W 0-125 hp dyno for $800.00 or so. I really like the idea of being able break-in and run my old tractors and get real output numbers to reproduce the Nebraska Tests I have sent for and received.

Second. Ever since I've been reading correspondence on this site, I have come to really suspect my Model B cylinder number 2 being robbed of good carbueretion due to the 180/540 firing scheme. When I run and/or stat this tractor, on one cylinder,(hand start), I can get a compression reading with the engine warmed up and throttle and choke open tempoarily. I get 62 and 64 psig for 1 and 2 respectively. This seems only a little low compared to spec of 70 psig. I also relate this to the adiabatic compression as about 70% of atmospheric air pressure times the compression ratio, (4.71) raised to 1.4. Specific Heat ratio for air. This correlates to the late Model B which has a compression ratio of 5.87 and specs of 110 psig. This thermodynamic exercise seems to indicate that I'm close to spec with my old engine. Also, I have received the Nebraska Test #305 which has notes that suggest that this tractor went through about 8 quarts of oil in 66 hours of testing. That's about 1 quart per 8 hour day. It seems these were hard on oil from the get go. I notice that when I run the tractor, the #2 plug is oily and the tractor misses occasionally, but not bad. In this little mental exercise, I wonder if the oil ring is bad on #2, or if it is possible to have the cheated single barrel carburetion be causing that cylinder to run less effectively. One test I devised to check this was to run the tractor only on #2 cylinder with the #1 plug removed. The plug removal was key for this scheme, because there would be a net zero flow of air through the carburetor and would only come in and out through plug hole. If my theory was correct, the #2 would not be cheated, and it would run well with a clean plug.

In fact it ran great on #2 and the plug was light brown and dry. #1 also runs good, (of course), in this arrangement. Tractor runs with same rpm on either. However, when it's running on #2 with # 1 plug in, it does not run as well as #1 alone.

It seems that my theory is correct, and I therfore believe that I am chasing an engineering design shortcoming from that era. Is it possible, and true that there is the limit of good performance for my Model.

I could easily take the cylinder apart and check, but as this is a hobby, I am trying to conceptually, and theoretically understand its operation.

If this is true, is there a way to set the carburetor to help the #2 without crippling the #1?

I think it would be fun to fabriacte another manifold and run two carburetors.

Any thoughts on my conclusions would be great.

I'm playing this out as a winter hobby alla Roger Welsch. And, I hope to get that dyno as a great test tool. High end perfection. I want to log the 18.53 PTO hp from Nebraska.

Thanks.

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Rodney A. Johnson

01-05-2004 08:17:30




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 Re: Balancing the 2 cylinders in reply to Arden Hills, 01-04-2004 07:00:44  
An old 2 cylinder mechanic at a JD dealer told my dad the best way to make the old 2 cylinders run smoother and better when not being worked hard was to put a hotter plug in the #2 cylinder.

The last time I bought plugs for my '52 A, JD told me the plugs they sell were hotter than the original ones.

As to usage of oil, I do recall needing to add oil to our 730 diesels quite often. Back then they were our biggest tractors and had to work on steep hills with red clay. You could hear the pounding of those two cylinders miles away when working those hills.

As to the '52 G we had and my '52 A I have now, I didn't need to add oil. Don't work them hard enough.

As for my 4020D and 3010D, I can run for 60 to 150 hours and not have to add oil. Again, I really seldom work them hard.

Course I run 30W or 15-45W deere oil so maybe that makes a difference.

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Arden Hills

01-05-2004 12:35:48




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 Re: Re: Balancing the 2 cylinders in reply to Rodney A. Johnson, 01-05-2004 08:17:30  
Thanks for the incite. It helps to have other reference. I have switched to Champion W89D Plugs.



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ron in MN

01-04-2004 11:07:00




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 Re: Balancing the 2 cylinders in reply to Arden Hills, 01-04-2004 07:00:44  
Your idea of fabricating another manifold and running two carbs is pretty much what JD did with the "B's" successor, the "50", which resulted in a much better tractor.



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Arden Hills

01-04-2004 11:59:31




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 Re: Re: Balancing the 2 cylinders in reply to ron in MN, 01-04-2004 11:07:00  
Thanks. I can see why that was a good design migration.



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Bob

01-04-2004 09:19:11




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 Re: Balancing the 2 cylinders in reply to Arden Hills, 01-04-2004 07:00:44  
Ardy,

I don't think you can fabricate a different manifold and run 2 carbs because the 2 cylinders share a common intake port in the head. I have often thought of making the best running "B" ever by converting it to EFI. I wonder if there is room under the valve cover to install 2 fuel injectors right next to the intake valves? If a guy could get that system worked out, it would make one SWEET RUNNING "B"!

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Mike M

01-04-2004 14:07:08




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 Re: Re: Balancing the 2 cylinders in reply to Bob, 01-04-2004 09:19:11  
Look at the amount of poor running and not running posts now. Just imageine all the extra posts there would be if these tractors had EFI from new or in the future 50 yr old EFI's ?? I'll take the old simple systems they will still be running long after all the new electronic crap has crapped out !



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Arden Hills

01-05-2004 12:37:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Balancing the 2 cylinders in reply to Mike M, 01-04-2004 14:07:08  
Yes, the simplicity id great. Maybe not as efficient, but they run and it makes repair fun.



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Arden Hills

01-04-2004 12:00:58




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 Re: Re: Balancing the 2 cylinders in reply to Bob, 01-04-2004 09:19:11  
Great. I might try something like that if I get a chance. It's fun to experiment.



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Paul

01-04-2004 07:45:37




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 Re: Balancing the 2 cylinders in reply to Arden Hills, 01-04-2004 07:00:44  
you are indeed chasing an engineering shortfall of the time sortof.the tracor was designed to go out and plow all day long day after day year after year.this was not a big problem then. now we just play with them at idle and they have a tendency to foul #2 plug.yes you can play with carb but #2 cyl will always be richer. Paul



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Arden Hills

01-04-2004 12:02:55




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 Re: Re: Balancing the 2 cylinders in reply to Paul, 01-04-2004 07:45:37  
Thanks for the verification. It helps to not chase past original operation.

P.S. Did they really use that much oil when new. about a quart every 8 hours in the field?



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DON

01-04-2004 14:50:44




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 Re: Re: Re: Balancing the 2 cylinders in reply to Arden Hills, 01-04-2004 12:02:55  
I read in one of the old operators manuals that the "D" while plowing could use a gallon of oil a day and not be excessive. Deere considers the 4020 ok up to 2 qts. in 10 hrs of plowing, main thing is that it doesn't start all at once.



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Arden Hills

01-05-2004 12:38:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Balancing the 2 cylinders in reply to DON, 01-04-2004 14:50:44  
Thanks for the quantitative reference. It seems mine is not bad then.



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johndeere_

01-04-2004 17:21:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Balancing the 2 cylinders in reply to DON, 01-04-2004 14:50:44  
in today's standards deere ok on oil consumption is a quart of oil per every 100 gal. of fuel so according to that, that means that some the the new 4wd that hold over 200 gal of fuel, every time you fill up with fuel you have to add 2 quarts of oil!



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Arden Hills

01-05-2004 12:40:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Balancing the 2 cylinders in reply to johndeere_, 01-04-2004 17:21:03  
Thanks for the info. Do you think there are more modern oil rings that limit the consumption for a B?



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