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Implement Alley Discussion Forum

Timothy

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cj3b_jeep

09-26-2005 09:46:16




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I have a small (2 acre) field near my house that the previous owner stripped the topsoil off of before selling it. It's mostly weeds right now in sandy soil. I was thinking of planting it in timothy or alfalfa and then plowing it under each year to help build the top soil in that area. Any comments on this? Also, I don't have a seed drill, just a plow and a HEAVY landscaping rake. I was thinking about a disc next year.

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Scotmac

09-28-2005 14:19:24




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 Re: Timothy in reply to cj3b_jeep, 09-26-2005 09:46:16  
A good and cheap crop to plow under is soybeans. I sow them either broadcast or drilled, wait till they just begin to set pods, and plow them under. Lots of old timers did it years ago. Cheap source of green manure!



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cj3b_jeep

09-28-2005 08:37:10




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 Re: Timothy in reply to cj3b_jeep, 09-26-2005 09:46:16  
John, you're right, there are a lot of great ideas for reclaimation of this field. Just goes to show you that many different things work for people in different parts of the country.

I also like the green manure/cover crop idea, I'll probably go with some kind of a clover as the the deer will have something to eat around here and most of the rest of my fields are heavy in clover. I also have a few bales of first cutting hay I'll get rid of out there.

Thanks for all of the info, it's very helpful and good to know that so much knowledge is available for the asking

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John Schneider

09-28-2005 07:26:51




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 Re: Timothy in reply to cj3b_jeep, 09-26-2005 09:46:16  
I have the exact same conditions on one of my small fields. A lot of the responses here are great ideas. The green manure/cover crop is the best way to go in my opinion until you can get the soil in shape again. Berry crops don't need a lot of nitrogen, they need Phos. and Potassium. Good cover crops for fixating these nutrients are buckwheat and a few other crops of this type. Also, there are no rules against mixing your cover crops. Legumes fixate nitrogen from the atmosphere into the soil. Alfalfa is the best, but you need to leave it for at least two years. Some of the other legumes, like clover or peas could be more of an annual and might be the best bet for your first cover crop...then buckwheat the following spring...then plow...then winter rye...then your raspberries. There isn't really a fast way to re-build your soil PROPERLY. This is what I am doing based on quite a bit of research I have done on organic farming practices. Good luck.

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Kris Jensen

09-27-2005 13:58:01




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 Re: Timothy in reply to cj3b_jeep, 09-26-2005 09:46:16  
My dad had similar experiences. He used to plant either sweet clover or buckwheat. When it was about six to eight inches high, he would plow it under, and start over. A good layer or manure before plowing would also help. This method of course took a year out of production, but was more than made up in land that became productive again. You don't need a grain drill either, just a good pail, a walking gait, and some experience at broadcast seeding by hand. It works. three or four growings of clover/buckwheat, plowed under would restore the land to production and add nutrient to the soil. Good luck

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Jimmy King

09-27-2005 01:50:42




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 Re: Timothy in reply to cj3b_jeep, 09-26-2005 09:46:16  
My Dad used Sweet Clover a lot, and plowed it under. He and I used Red Clover a few times. I had a neighbor that had 10 acres, Dad said he had never seen it grow much. We plowed it with a chisel plow put it in wheat and red clover, the red clover didn't come up. We combined the wheat, and it had a very thick stand of lespedisa about knee high. We plowed it under and tried the wheat and red clover again, got a good stand of clover that time and plowed it under. we then put it in Alfalfa, and it grew a lot of hay 20 years later the owner has reseeded it in Alfalfa, and still growing a lot if hay on it.

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paul

09-27-2005 07:33:13




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 Re: Timothy in reply to Jimmy King, 09-27-2005 01:50:42  
Unfortunately, there are a lot of diseases & bugs that really hamper these legumes in today's world. Albert Lea Seed House is near me - think I put the web site in my other post here, and sells a blend of red clover, sweet clover, & cheap alfalfa for plow-down. Generally one or 2 of these will overcome all the critters that are out there and provides some growth. Sweet clover starts so slowly, but really comes on late in the next spring/ almost summer, really does a good job reclaiming land if you can get it going.

--->Paul

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Jimmy King

09-28-2005 02:44:17




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 Re: Timothy in reply to paul, 09-27-2005 07:33:13  
Paul, there is a wevil that gets in red clover that looks just like the alfalfa wevil, except its nose is brown instead of black. One year when I finished spraying my alfalfa I made about 4 passes across some red clover to empty out the sprayer, this was on the poorest part of the field and it yeilded about twice what the rest of the field did.



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cj3b_jeep

09-26-2005 12:12:40




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 Re: Timothy in reply to cj3b_jeep, 09-26-2005 09:46:16  
My (my wife"s) future plan for the field is to grow red raspberries on it for sale in a few years" time. What I have on it now is kind of a weed stubble. I"m getting some manure soon for the garden and will get some for the field too. What about the ashes that come out of my wood stove? I"ve heard you can mix these in with manure also.

Bob



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tim[in]

09-26-2005 13:54:55




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 Re: Timothy in reply to cj3b_jeep, 09-26-2005 12:12:40  
what i would do is plant the raspberrys and mulch between the rows. and let the mulch hold in moisture and break down adding it's organic matter to the soil and whatever nutrients are in it. this way you can get the raspberrys established and they can start making money.just mow the weeds down. run a tiller where you are going to put in the raspberry plants. the mulch will keep the weeds down and save you from spending $3.oo a gallon on fuel.wont do you any good to pour on fertilizer till you get your raspberry market going. you should get enough in the mean time to get some selling and raising experience under your belt.

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paul

09-26-2005 11:58:18




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 Re: Timothy in reply to cj3b_jeep, 09-26-2005 09:46:16  
Your issue is moisture & lack of fertilizers.

I would not want to plow & re-establish a crop every year. That will be your hard part, getting something rooted.

I would do the manure thing, most any type, as soon as you can. That will help with all types of soil nutrition. As well it helps hold moisture.

Old straw or hay or grass clippings that has no other value will also help build the soil, hold moisture real well. Note that both manure & straw will introduce weeds.... Just how it is.

I would try to establish a bit of growth this year. Where I live first frost _could_ happen this Thursday, but should in a couple weeks anyhow. So, it is getting _real_ late here anyhow. Rye is the toughest bugger, I'd plant that & have my fingers crossed for moisture (of course I've had 6 inches of rain this month already, I need it dry to do any harvest!).

If you are in a milder climate, you can try to establish a real cover crop. If colder climate, just do the rye now, & rework & put in a real crop next spring. More manure next spring would be good.

For a real crop, I would put in a light amount of small grain (rye, oats, wheat - whatever, would only need a bu an acre) and alfalfa. I'd pick a cheap one. You could also plant clover, and grasses with all this. Don't get too carried away, but a pasture mix type of thing. The grain will sprout quick & offer shade & weed control; the alfalfa/clover will come on in a month & offer soil building & N in 3 months; the grasses will come on next year & be a sod for you eventually.

The alfalfa will do you the most good. Let it grow. Let it get 5 years+ old, and it will send it's roots very deep, several feet, and it will pull up nutrients from down deep, as well as adding it's root mass to the organic matter of your soil - help with moisture rention. Alfalfa & clovers add N to the soil, so you will build your soil's value. Less cutting of the alfalfa will allow it to grow deeper, bigger roots, and add more N. Cutting often will make it use up it's root stores....

Most any of the ideas will work, but it will be _real_ hard to establish a crop. You _need_ manure or a whole lot of mixed commercial fertilizer, and you need to get lucky with rains to get this growth started.

May take you several tries as things dry out & die. You will _have_ to catch a rainy period on sandy soils with no top soil. Very difficult.

Once you get something growing, I'd hate to plow it up real quick & have to try again. I'd let it grow, add some manure once or 2wce a year, & let the roots build up.

Not sure of your intentions for the plot, if you need it in a year, or it will just be grass for the future, but this would build it about the best. I would not try to take hay off it for several years, it needs to rot it's growth down for more organic matter in the soil. Very hard to bring up organic matter, adding manure or straw helps, but takes a lot of N to break the vegitation down, so you need the alfalfa or clover to keep the N coming. You could lightly graze the field in a year or more, as the critters return the manure to the field, but go real light on the grazing, don't stress the plants. They will be fragile in the sandy bare sub-soil.

Where I live, there is typically 120 feet of clay subsoil from what the glaciers scraped off of Canada, so I have a lot easier time of it - fertilizer or manure, wait for just before a rain, plant, & all will be well - can treat it like any other ground in about a year. :) You will have problems with the light soil, need to build it.

--->Paul

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fastken

09-26-2005 10:23:14




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 Re: Timothy in reply to cj3b_jeep, 09-26-2005 09:46:16  
winter wheat or winter rye any time before the ground freezes up then plow it under late spring also mamoth or red clover make very good (green manure) maybe plant that next spring and plow it under in the fall and follow again with rye or wheat??
that would really build up your soil



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James2

09-26-2005 14:22:26




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 Re: Timothy in reply to fastken, 09-26-2005 10:23:14  
Agree with the mammoth red clover, or better yet try sweet (yellow) clover. Sweet clover was the choice in bygone years and the seed is cheaper. Both grow very tall and provide a lot of green manure. Sweet clover can be a little more difficult to kill, roots go deep. Probably after plowing will have some reestablish, just use a little Roundup.



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old

09-26-2005 10:00:45




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 Re: Timothy in reply to cj3b_jeep, 09-26-2005 09:46:16  
If it where my field I'd plant winter wheat in it and plow it under the next spring. Then plany a grass clover mix. Also if you could get mamure and spread it on the land it would also help. The winter wheat would also help the wild life in your area and it make what is called a good green manure.



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old

09-26-2005 10:00:12




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 Re: Timothy in reply to cj3b_jeep, 09-26-2005 09:46:16  
If it where my field I'd plant winter wheat in it and plow it under the next spring. Then plany a grass clover mix. Also if you could get mamure and spread it on the land it would also help. The winter wheat would also help the wild life in your area and it make what is called a good green manure.



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cj3b_jeep

09-26-2005 10:20:48




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 Re: Timothy in reply to old, 09-26-2005 10:00:12  
I can get horse manure from the guy down the road. When should I plant winter wheat? Also, should I plow it up, then run my rake on it before planting?

Bob



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old

09-26-2005 10:29:34




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 Re: Timothy in reply to cj3b_jeep, 09-26-2005 10:20:48  
Yes it should be plowed and or heavy discing. As far as when to plant wheat it depends on where you are. Most say any time after the first day of fall which of course is past so any time you can get it done will probably be about the right time to plant.



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cj3b_jeep

09-26-2005 11:26:35




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 Re: Timothy in reply to old, 09-26-2005 10:29:34  
Thanks for the info



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cj3b_jeep

09-26-2005 10:17:47




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 Re: Timothy in reply to old, 09-26-2005 10:00:12  
I can get horse manure from the guy down the road. When should I plant winter wheat? Also, should I plow it up, then run my rake on it before planting?

Bob



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edchainsaw

09-27-2005 19:38:56




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 Re: Timothy in reply to cj3b_jeep, 09-26-2005 10:17:47  
I would stray away from timothy and alfalfa as they are crops that require nutrients (lots of K in alfalfa) and are not cheap to put out there.


what you want to do is like others have said-- a small grain then red clover--and an orchard grass- fescue kinda mixture that you only have to keep lime and minimual fertilization.

My ancesters sold sod into chicago in 1936. they then just pastured that until 1950. but I have seen this other method work a lot faster than that. but LIME was a must.

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paul

09-28-2005 08:04:02




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 Re: Timothy in reply to edchainsaw, 09-27-2005 19:38:56  
You make a good point. I live in a limestone area, so we rarely need to worry about ph - but most areas of the country need lime to adjust the ph. Manure often makes the ph a bit lower even, and likely this person will want a good deal of manure....

So, grab a soil test. Dig 4-5 holes cross the field - only have to go 6" deep. Mix a bit of soil - garden shovel full from the height of each hole - in a bucket, & take a small bag sample to get tested. Will be $20 or less. It will tell you what you are short on, and if you need lime. Most likely you will be short on a lot of N, P, &K, but some sub-soils are high in one of those, would be good to know.

Lime takes 6 months to really start working. It is like a great big antacid for your soil, and the more you need, the longer it takes to get working. All the N,P, & K you put on won't be available for the plants if your ph is too low.

Best to check it out.

--->Paul

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