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Implement Alley Discussion Forum

Hay Dr? Bale weight behind Vermeer R23 vs NH rake

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Tx Jim

06-23-2005 09:37:35

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Hay Dr,in a lower post you stated that a bale baled with same baler,but raked with an R23 weighted MORE!!!T he only way I see the bale weights more is if your famed hard to push in/out R23 is raking a WIDER width. Would you please explain your theory. Tx Jim

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Hay DR

06-23-2005 14:10:56

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Re: Hay Dr? Bale weight behind Vermeer R23 vs NH r in reply to Tx Jim, 06-23-2005 09:37:35

This is fact not theory." The bigger the windrow the better the bale will be." You will optimize the capacity of your baler with a large uniform windrow. A double NH256 windrow is only putting 15-17' width of hay into the windrow. The R21 was raking 21' of hay into a windrow. After the demo, every MFG there asked Vermeer to rake the rest of the hay for them to bale. We purchased a round baler in 1971 and have sold over 2000 New Round balers since 1971. We have also sold over 1500 used round balers from every color under the rainbow. Remember we had to make all those used balers bale hay, so we have to know what makes everyone's else's baler tick. We also farm close to 1000 acres of hay every year. We have the proof in 34 years of experience.

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Tx Jim

06-23-2005 16:48:58

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hay dr/salesman in reply to Hay DR, 06-23-2005 14:10:56

Sir,You didn't state that these 250# heavier bales raked by a Vermeer R 21 and baled by the same baler that the RAKING WIDTH was ALOT WIDER with the hard to move in/out on ground that isn't as smooth as an airport runway.Now I understand your approach to sales.I've got 40 yrs of experience baling hay but that doesn't mean that I can't learn something new every day.Tx Jim

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Hay Dr

06-23-2005 18:10:30

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Texas Tall Tales in reply to Tx Jim, 06-23-2005 16:48:58

The first large round balers roller out in 1971. There were no large round balers before then by any MFG. It is not possible to have 40 years experience in large round bales. A larger windrow will make a better bale with any round baler. Everyone knows a 851 NH chain baler does not make a tight bale of hay. They used this NH851 and proved that even a better windrow with a loose baling baler would make a better bale. Coleman Jones was the first person in Texas to own a large round baler.

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Tx Jim

06-24-2005 02:47:25

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looks more like Tenn.tale tales in reply to Hay Dr, 06-23-2005 18:10:30

Hay dr,my post didn't say 40 yrs round baling experience,just Baling experience.But I agree with other poster that any rd.baler pulled correctly will make as heavy a bale in a smaller windrow but it's alot easier to make good bale with a larger,uniform windrow.I think the COLOR of V-rake will not make bale heavier.Tx Jim

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Hay Dr

06-24-2005 04:29:05

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Texas Two step in reply to Tx Jim, 06-24-2005 02:47:25

At the time the test was done, 20 years ago, Vermeer was the only MFG with a V rake. The color of the rake has nothing to do with it. A V wheel rake, large in-line wheel rake or a twin rotary rake making a large windrow would have given the same result. When you have 200-300 6'x5' bales to bale in one day you are not going to be able to go slow and bale hay or you will not get the work done. The person raking the hay has about the same contribution in the quality of the bale as the round bale operator.

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RickB

06-25-2005 08:27:58

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Re: Texas Two step in reply to Hay Dr, 06-24-2005 04:29:05

When did Gehl start marketing the Vicon V-rakes? There were acouple around here a long time ago..... .....

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Hay DR

06-25-2005 10:35:31

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A History Lesson in reply to RickB, 06-25-2005 08:27:58

Vicon had in-line wheel rakes in the 1970's but not V-Rakes. Lely made the first wheel rakes as we know them today. Chester Meyer did get a patent for a horse drawn V Rake in 1954. Lely got the first patent for a 3 point V-rake in 1978 but the did not sell that many of them here in the USA. The foldable pull-type wheel V-Rakes as we now know them today showed up in the Late 1980's.

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RickB

06-25-2005 12:38:56

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Some Lesson in reply to Hay DR, 06-25-2005 10:35:31

You don't need to get all defensive. I asked a legit question based on the fact that around here, Vermeer has few sales and poor support. Gehl has always had decent numbers and good support. So based your "lesson", Lely had V rakes in 1978 but that doesn't count because they had low numbers. On the other hand "20 years ago, Vermeer was the only MFG with a V rake". According to the other side of your mouth, Lely beat Vermeer by at least 7 years with a V style rake. You seem to know a lot about hay making, but you spread a lot of crap on the stubble.

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Hay DR

06-25-2005 15:24:24

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More History Lessons in reply to RickB, 06-25-2005 12:38:56

In Feb. 1974 Vermeer introduced the R21 hydraulic driven pull-type roller bar V-Rake. The Lely V-Rake introduced & patented in 1978 was one 3 point Left Hand wheel rake and 3 point one Right Hand wheel rake mounted on a 3 point tool bar.

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RickB

06-25-2005 15:30:58

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Re: More History Lessons in reply to Hay DR, 06-25-2005 15:24:24

You are having quite a debate with yourself about who introduced what when.

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Tx Jim

06-25-2005 16:45:19

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SALESMANSHIP or PROPAGADA in reply to RickB, 06-25-2005 15:30:58

RickB,AMEN/DITTO Vermeer is the FIRST and Only manufacturer of hay equipment in the world.If you bale hay with a Vermeer baler all you need is a tractor a little larger than a lawn mower to make a 1000# bale!!!Tx Jim

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Hay Dr

06-26-2005 04:56:06

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TXjim, Your prejudice has blinded you to the truth in reply to Tx Jim, 06-25-2005 16:45:19

The Statement in question is "With every round baler known to man this statement is true. " The bigger the windrow the better the bale will be."

Just show me where I mentioned any MFG in this statement.

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Tx Jim

06-26-2005 05:14:29

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The statement that Hay Dr made originally in reply to Hay Dr, 06-26-2005 04:56:06

Hay Dr,you sound like the pot calling the kettle black.Your statement that I referred to is that a VERMEER R 21 rake caused a baler to make a 250# heavier bale than baling a smaller windrow.No you say I'm prejudice.Kim should charge you an advertising fee for all the Vermeer pictures you post as you are a DEALER.Tx Jim

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Hay Dr

06-26-2005 11:42:52

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The Bigger the windrow the better the round bale w in reply to Tx Jim, 06-26-2005 05:14:29

The test could have been done with a a John Deere 705 Twin Rake, as pictured below. Vermeer makes it for John Deere in Pella,Iowa.

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Tx Jim

06-26-2005 12:05:07

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JD green(Vermeer R21)????????? in reply to Hay Dr, 06-26-2005 11:42:52

Hay dr,are you saying that VERMEER sold rakes to JD way back when this bogus test was conducted.You stated VERMEER R 21 in test,surely with all your knowledge and facts you would know that the first "green" Vermeer(JD) rake was not an R 21.Next the rake in this test according to you could have been a JD 704(made by Tonnuti.Oh I also know that Vermeer made balers for Massey and Vermeer makes trenchers, I have been associated with agri. equipment since an early age so you can show your pictures to someone else. Facts are facts/fiction is fiction!!! TX Jim

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Hay Dr

06-26-2005 13:10:57

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Deere round balers are Green Hesston's in reply to Tx Jim, 06-26-2005 12:05:07

The JD 704 is a wheel rake that is made by Tonutti. JD started selling the 704 tonutti rake in the mid- 1990's. The JD 705 is a hydraulic Twin Rake and is the current model twin rake that Vermeer makes for JD. Vermeer did start makeing Twin rakes for JD back in the 1980's.

Vermeer make many products for CAT & John Deere.

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Tx Jim

06-26-2005 16:03:53

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And you call me prejudice in reply to Hay Dr, 06-26-2005 13:10:57

hay dr,now you have moved from bragging on Vermeer products to bashing JD products.Are you saying that Hesston builds JD balers or vice/versa.I can't figure how JD products have anything to do with your first raking mis-statement other than you're just trying to blow smoke up somewhere to cover your propaganda.At least no advertising pictures.Tx Jim

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Hay Dr

06-26-2005 18:04:07

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JD Engineering Dept. Slogan: COPY OTHERS AND FIGHT in reply to Tx Jim, 06-26-2005 16:03:53

In 1986 & 1988 Hesston & Vermeer filled a patent infringement suits against JD concerning their monitor and bale forming method patent #'s US4135352, US4145964, US4683815, US4702066. It was settled in 1990 and JD had to pay a war pension to both Vermeer and Hesston. JD also had to pay a patent licensing fee to Hesston for every baler they produced until the Hesston patents expired.

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Tx Jim

06-27-2005 03:34:06

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JD Engineering Dept. Slogan: COPY OTHERS AND FIGH in reply to Hay Dr, 06-26-2005 18:04:07

Hay Dr,may I ask what this has to do with your statement that hay raked by a Vermeer R 21 rake will weight 250# more than hay raked by NH256????I think JD didn't make this statement so why are you bashing JD again.Can you think of any more smoke screens.When Vermeer started making disc cutters and wheelrakes/caddy's did they copy any other manufacturer??Tx Jim

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Tx Jim

06-24-2005 05:18:51

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Tenn. double talk in reply to Hay Dr, 06-24-2005 04:29:05

Hay Dr,if you will read your post at bottom of this page that's about a Vermeer 504 you said a rd.bale made behind a Vermeer rake would be heavier when in fact a rd. bale made behind a V rake is heavier.This I agree to because the sides of bale will be more square,filled better than weaving on smaller windrow.BUT as VERMEER is not the only manufacturer hay equipment in the USA other manufacturer's make very good V-rakes that move in/out hydraulically.Yes I know Vermeer makes a rake that moves in/out hydraulically(not R23A) but I like my H&S hi-capacity rake(no hot tractor oil).I owned a Vermeer R23 for 6 yrs. so I have had experience pushing one in/out and putting many reel pipe brg's in it.Tx Jim

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paul

06-23-2005 20:13:29

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Re: Texas Tall Tales in reply to Hay Dr, 06-23-2005 18:10:30

I can also make a better round bale by driving slower, and in that case a smaller (less hay) windrow actually helps to make a tighter bale....

I think the point is to make a windrow that is full width of the round baler _all_ the time, which is far easier to do with a V rake such as the Vermeer you mention.

I don't believe a _bigger (more hay)_ windrow is the point, but a _wider_ windrow that is extremely uniform is the key.

Does that make some sense?

I would believe the V rake ended up producing better bales because windrow width is very very uniform, compared to the several passes with a single rake. So I don't dispute the claim, but I would look at the details just a tiny bit differently than I understand you to be saying.

--->Paul

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alan in the uk

06-26-2005 12:03:17

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Re: Texas Tall Tales in reply to paul, 06-23-2005 20:13:29

Have you ever baled a really rough, bumpy field??? one where your down in low gear?? ever noticed how you don't seem to get as many bales as you would have thought?? well i have, the slower you go the tighter the baler makes the bales!! therefore the less stuff going in, the heavier the bales will be!! it makes perfect sense!

Heres a test..
If you have a baler with hydraulic denisty, get it about half full, stop forward travel, leave baler going, and just watch the pressure guage drop!!

Therefore the more time the machine has to compress the crop the heavier the bale will be!

now if "mr vermeers" rake produces large windrow, i honestly cannot see that it would make a heavier bale!!
A flat swath, the width of your pickup is what you need to make a good bale!! you can make this with any old rowing up machine, i personally did not like the swath in the vermeer picture!

Thats my bit!
Alan in the uk

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Tx Jim

06-26-2005 12:17:09

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smaller windrows/heavier bales in reply to alan in the uk, 06-26-2005 12:03:17

Alan,you are right.That is exactly what I've been trying to get across.If you drive slower/smaller windrow the bale/roll rotates more rpm's as hay is fed into baler so bale will weigh more.On other side of coin with a larger/more uniform windrow it is easier to make a nicer looking/sides firm bale.I think I should know as I've baled over 100,000 rd.bales myself. Tx Jim

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